Theistic Evolutionist

[Sarugon]

Frankly Grimsauce, belief in the infallibility of the Bible is an essential part of Christianity. Saying that we can no more claim the Bible is completely true than a muslim can make that claim about the Koran is nothing short of heresy.
I won't waste my breath, we have nothing more to discuss.

 

[OrryW]

If Satan says a lie X, and the bible says, "Satan said X"...how is that not true? The bible isn't telling the lie...it's simply reporting what was said.

Seems true enough to me to say, "So and so said this".

The point is everything is accurately reported, which leads to a true account, but not the account of what is true.

 

[Patriot]

Okay, your post was huge, so mine (in response) is slightly more huge. Many apologies. Please don't take offense to any of this, it was not intended to cause any.

For example; within the Old Testament the concepts of grace and unconditional love were a small voice against the teachings of judgement and revenge.. made concrete through teachings such as "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". The Jews had every right to stone the woman who had committed adultery (in the New Testament) under their law, yet Jesus taught us a different lesson; that grace and forgiveness is of a higher moral value than righteous punishment.

I completely disagree. The old Testament is brimming with stories of God's grace and forgiveness. Time and time again He calls out to His wayward people (how many prophets did He send to them?). He chastens those He loves.

The Old Testament is filled with the slaughter of innocent men, women, and children in the pursuit of a home land,

Innocent? Do you know what those people did? Have you heard of the worship of Moleck? How people would burn their infants to this false god (not all that unlike today with abortion and all that)? These people were desperately wicked, not innocent.

yet Jesus taught us to resist not evil and to turn the other cheek.

Because God judges, not us. God instructed the Israelites to destroy those nations. He has not instructed us to slay people for their unrighteousness.

It is for these reasons that the Jews said that he was blasphemous and put him to death.

They said He was blasphemous because He claimed to be God (John 8:58-59).

Those that make the demand that the bible must be divinely inerrant, are no different from Muslims who claim that the Quran is the divine, inerrant word of God... or Mormons that make the claim that the Book of Mormon is the perfect revelation from the angel Moroni. These claims are made because their truth is not strong enough to stand on its own spiritual merits and must claim miraculous transmission in order to gain validation. Unconditional love and grace need no supernatural validation. The philosophical weight of these two concepts stand on their own.

Logical fallacy - strawman argument. Your perception of why we (actually the Bible itself) claim the Word of God is inerrant is incorrect. Truth is truth regardless of what people perceive it as, therefore it can stand on it's own without the Bible (which declares the truth). That being said, God has provided the Bible to us and we can rely on it for correct doctrine.

Those that demand the condition of Bible inerrancy have chosen to put their faith in a book. In doing so, they elevate it to Godhead, as apposed to allowing the book to lead them to the Spirit of God.

Incorrect. Our faith is in God who has revealed His Gospel to us through the Bible. If we cannot trust one part of the Bible, how can we trust any part of it? How do we know that the Gospel is true?

The New Testament teaches us that we are to be led by Spirit, not legal code. The Spirit of God is what illuminates the words within it, not it's literal wording.

No one claimed any different. It is the Spirit that reveals the truth of what the Bible says.

I am not saying that the Old Testament is without benefit, just as Paul says to Timothy that it is inspired by God-useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. Do you think the writings of C.S. Lewis are NOT inspired by God? are they useful for teaching?

Non sequitor. It does not follow that because a man writes about his experiences with God that it should equal scripture. First of all, I do not find all of C.S. Lewis works to be useful. Some I flat out disagree with. That being said, the New Testament was written primarily by people who either walked with Jesus or were touched specifically by Him. Not to mention the need for the Bible to spread the Gospel (and doctrine) in the early Church.

But to believe that the Bible is flawless is to almost believe that without it, we would have no way of knowing God through his Spirit.

Again, non sequitor. Your premise is flawed. No one that I know who believes in the inerrancy of the (original) manuscripts believes that it is only through the Bible that we can know Him.

Just for the record, I believe there are transcribe errors and translation errors in our version of the Bible. But I believe the original manuscripts were inspired by God and perfectly correct. Neither translation errors nor transcribe errors cause that much difficulty with the harmony in the Bible.

 

[Stc95]

Again guys, keep it cool. CGA isn't about bible thumping or a single denomination fellowship. For whatever reasons the Bible isn't exactly the clearest book in the world and we will all come to different conclusions. With that in mind you are allowed to state your beliefs, comment on others in a respectful way, and if it comes to it, agree to disagree. There's no reason to create tension between people if we don't need to. We were friends before this and we'll be friends after this.

 

[Unfetered]

Not what I'm saying at all, the Bible is a perfectly accurate history text, so it says what people did and what God said, and what other people said perfectly accurately.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accurate
(for those who can't use links)

Main Entry: ac·cu·rate
Pronunciation: \ˈa-kyə-rət, ˈa-k(ə-)rət\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin accuratus, from past participle of accurare to take care of, from ad- + cura care
Date: 1596
1 : free from error especially as the result of care <an accurate diagnosis>
2 : conforming exactly to truth or to a standard : exact <providing accurate color>
3 : able to give an accurate result <an accurate gauge>

 

[Abba San]

I would have to agree with Stc95 on this one. It has been interesting to read people's responses and views. But, the bottom line is - we are not going to resolve this issue in this forum. So we can keep a level of cool while we share our views.

Just today in the latest issue of Christianity Today is an article, Adamant on Adam, showing how the whole issue of evolution and creation is a hot topic in headier circles than CGA forums.

One day we will see clearly...

 

[Logos]

Hey guys, I would have to be the third to say this thread needs to be realed in a bit. I understand that discussions are good for ironing out different topics, but a discussion like this can easily turn into a heated argument of bashing one another's ideas or thoughts. In order to stay neutral I am simply going to ask that you play nice or the playground will be closed.

 

[OrryW]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accurate
(for those who can't use links)

Main Entry: ac·cu·rate
Pronunciation: \ˈa-kyə-rət, ˈa-k(ə-)rət\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin accuratus, from past participle of accurare to take care of, from ad- + cura care
Date: 1596
1 : free from error especially as the result of care <an accurate diagnosis>
2 : conforming exactly to truth or to a standard : exact <providing accurate color>
3 : able to give an accurate result <an accurate gauge>

Just to clarify, the original manuscripts would be the 1st definition.

 

[inkelis]

I don't understand why we are haggling the guys that believe in evolution... I mean look at all the different personal translations people adopt. I mean, for example, their are individuals who are anti makeup or piercings because of Corinth, and their are other individuals who don't glean that from the same teaching. To say that the bible is full of universal truth implies that it is 100% clear. I believe the bible is full of PERSONAL truth, something that will change with the person as he/she grows with God.

To assume God is simple enough to figure out is ridiculous. These rock hard claims people in this thread are making are not plausible to everyone, just to themselves.

I believe the bible is like a work of art, everyone will have their interpretation (And whether or not it is correct is between them and god, not for us to say.) This is obviously the way God designed it.

Also, i find evolution very interesting, and to say that God could not pulled it off is ridiculous.

 

[grimsauce]

I don't understand why we are haggling the guys that believe in evolution... I mean look at all the different personal translations people adopt. I mean, for example, their are individuals who are anti makeup or piercings because of Corinth, and their are other individuals who don't glean that from the same teaching. To say that the bible is full of universal truth implies that it is 100% clear. I believe the bible is full of PERSONAL truth, something that will change with the person as he/she grows with God.

To assume God is simple enough to figure out is ridiculous. These rock hard claims people in this thread are making are not plausible to everyone, just to themselves.

I believe the bible is like a work of art, everyone will have their interpretation (And whether or not it is correct is between them and god, not for us to say.) This is obviously the way God designed it.

Also, i find evolution very interesting, and to say that God could not pulled it off is ridiculous.

the sad truth is that even your opinion is subject to criticism for the sheer reason that it is your opinion .. it's frustrating to know that our feelings on the legitimacy of the bible is all opinion, no matter how much we believe it is fact and no matter how much logic we seem to have to back it up. Well, it's opinion until we're with God and he tells us what's really behind it all

 

[Stc95]

I believe the bible is full of PERSONAL truth, something that will change with the person as he/she grows with God.

To assume God is simple enough to figure out is ridiculous. These rock hard claims people in this thread are making are not plausible to everyone, just to themselves.

I believe the bible is like a work of art, everyone will have their interpretation (And whether or not it is correct is between them and god, not for us to say.) This is obviously the way God designed it.

I can agree with this. The Bible is not clear, no matter how you cut it, and the point is: we aren't supposed to get it! "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.'" Matt 13:14. Our minds don't have the capacity to understand all that God is or all that He can do. When I try thinking about Heaven, or how the King would trade His throne for a cross baffles me. It doesn't make sense.

So when it's unclear about what God says to do in his Word, that's when you need to be led by the Holy Spirit to figure out your own meaning from the text. Like you said, lots of people get different things from different parts of the Bible, and as long as it's spirit led I have no problem with that. In fact, I encourage it! Read with the Father and the Spirit, because the devil quotes scripture and you need the Spirit to sift through the garbage that Satan tries to clog us with.

However, with that said, I think there are also some parts of the Bible that one have one interpretation and must be taken literally. That Jesus died and is resurrected can not be interpreted. It happened. There's no debate about that.

Also, i find evolution very interesting, and to say that God could not pulled it off is ridiculous.

I find evolution fascinating as well. But the very definition of Evolution that these scientists believe, that there was once nothing that blew up into the universe as we know it and we are here by the faintest of odds, is ridiculous. Last year I took AP Biology anxious to get to the evolution part of the course so I could challenge my teacher, and the more we learned about biology, cells, the systems in bugs/humans/animals, and how the world works, the more I came to realize that this world is not an accident. Everything works so perfectly and in such strict parameters that life could not have started as the result of an accident. We can not be here without the aid of some higher being, science proves that. God does not prove evolution, evolution (micro that is) proves the existence of God.

 

[ewoksrule]

@ Inkelis

I believe the bible is full of PERSONAL truth, something that will change with the person as he/she grows with God.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by this. Could you please give a few examples of a Biblical truth that changes as you grow with God? Thanks.

These rock hard claims people in this thread are making are not plausible to everyone, just to themselves.

I don't really get this either. Could you please give an example of these rock hard claims that are not plausible? I would appreciate it.

 

[Patriot]

To say that the bible is full of universal truth implies that it is 100% clear.

Not really. We know that gravity exists and is "truth" but it is not 100% clear on what it is exactly. Truth doesn't rely on our perception of it, it is objective not subjective.

I believe the bible is full of PERSONAL truth, something that will change with the person as he/she grows with God.

Define "Personal truth".

To assume God is simple enough to figure out is ridiculous. These rock hard claims people in this thread are making are not plausible to everyone, just to themselves.

I don't recall anyone in this thread claiming to have figured out God. I certainly didn't.

I believe the bible is like a work of art, everyone will have their interpretation (And whether or not it is correct is between them and god, not for us to say.) This is obviously the way God designed it.

I guess it isn't that obvious to me.

Also, i find evolution very interesting, and to say that God could not pulled it off is ridiculous.

I agree that such a statement would be ridiculous, but I don't think anyone made that claim.

I can agree with this. The Bible is not clear, no matter how you cut it, and the point is: we aren't supposed to get it! "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.'" Matt 13:14. Our minds don't have the capacity to understand all that God is or all that He can do.

No offense, but I think you are using that verse without the proper context:

And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:


‘ Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should[a]heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Jesus was talking about the unredeemed in this passage with reference to those who hear but don't understand.

 

[Stc95]

Jesus was talking about the unredeemed in this passage with reference to those who hear but don't understand.

Aye, and while we are saved through Christ, the meaning of what he says still holds true: that it isn't supposed to be simple or easy to get.

 

[inkelis]

@ Inkelis


I am not sure I understand what you mean by this. Could you please give a few examples of a Biblical truth that changes as you grow with God? Thanks.


I don't really get this either. Could you please give an example of these rock hard claims that are not plausible? I would appreciate it.

To answer question number number 1: Alcohol is a good example for me. I was always taught that alcohol is bad and i'm a sinner if i consume. The truth here is that it is bad if abused. If i was not abusing it, then i would no longer be bad. I mentioned this to point out that people have interpretations. For instance, God may speak to someone and tell them alcohol is bad if they have a tendency to abuse.

Similarly, if a recovering alcoholic came to your door you probably would not try to convince him of all the good things alcohol can do for you health, but you might tell your grandma who would not struggle with it. I think God does the same through his word.

To answer Question number 2: At this point i was getting a little heated and feeling sort of attacked by this thread. This claim was irrational and based on emotion not logic.

But, i was referring to the claims that the bible is a certain way with no exception.

 

[Sarugon]

Aye, and while we are saved through Christ, the meaning of what he says still holds true: that it isn't supposed to be simple or easy to get.

That's not really true, for unbelievers yes, not for believers. We have the holy spirit to reveal truth to us, it isn't supposed to be some kind of hidden, incomprehensible knowledge.

2nd Corinthians 4:4- The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

1st Corinthians 2:16- For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[grimsauce]

It sounds good Sarugon but you go ahead and explain why we all have different opinions :\?

 

[inkelis]

It sounds good Sarugon but you go ahead and explain why we all have different opinions :\?

It is clear that the holy spirit does not give us all the answers, otherwise why would life be so difficult? The journey to God is a long and arduous one. Everyone here is at a different point in their personal relationship with God.

 

[Durruck]

The entirety of the Bible is accurate not true, there is a difference. I know this because it reports the words of Satan at points, which were lies, if the entirety of the Bible was true then that wouldn't be in there, however if it is accurate it would be. Meaning the Bible was inspired by God, but inspiration doesn't always equal the end product, people like to write what they want, everybody has free will, everyone except Jesus sinned, and Jesus didn't directly write anything. There is the matter of translation compounded on top of that, even in the original language now it isn't original text, making it so details can be wrong, but the big picture is the same.

Forgive me as I'm trying to catch up to 6 pages of this thread, but I didn't see this completely answered to my satisfaction. You state that there is a difference between the accuracy and truth of the Bible.

I fail to see your logic in this. If I write that my Science textbook in 4th grade claimed that the Earth was 56 Million years old, I have recorded the truth. That is what my 4th grade Science textbook claimed. Whether or not the quoted information is accurate does not reduce the truth of my statement.

By God recording Satan's lies, He can guide us so that we are not confused and caught off guard by the same lies again. Gen 3:4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Yes, Satan lied, but God did not lie by preparing us for Satan's attempts to deceive us by twisting the truth.

I see a stark difference between recording an untruth (and notating that it is, in fact, a lie) and saying that the Bible cannot be taken as true because it contains lies.

 

[Patriot]

It sounds good Sarugon but you go ahead and explain why we all have different opinions :\?

On majors: Unfortunately, because Christians have been mislead, either purposely or inadvertently, through bad doctrine. (Ephesians 4:14; 2 Timothy 4:3; Hebrews 13:9; 2 Peter 2:1)

On minors: Because it comes down to personal conviction based on your temptations, relationship with God, and your listening to the Holy Spirit.

It is clear that the holy spirit does not give us all the answers, otherwise why would life be so difficult?

Non sequitor. One does not necessarily follow the other. You could know all the answers and still have a very difficult life and vice versa.