Question for the Resident Athiests

[Genesis1315]

Problem is, I'm purposely trying catch ToJ'ers and GFC'ers that are disobeying the server rules. When that happens, it proves to me, even though Christian are not perfect, it doesn't mean they're all good too.

Most of the time, we find what we are truely searching for. The thing is, we all make mistakes. Each one of us does. It does not matter whether we are a member of GFC, ToJ, ABC or even DEF. It is bound to happen. So, it is not so much whether or not we make mistakes, it is how we handle the mistakes we make.

Just curious Corp, what would happen if you spent 15% of that time looking for God instead of looking for those who are going to mess up?

Gen

 

[Corpfox]

Just curious Corp, what would happen if you spent 15% of that time looking for God instead of looking for those who are going to mess up?

Heh. It would be vice versa. Unfortunately, I'm too stubborn to do that. Problem is, for the information I get from all of you, it doesn't get me to go forward to religion since my questions do not relate to one another. Even so, still stubborn about it.

Stubborn that I can easily put use of the information and take on my beliefs to religion, to God, to Jesus, to myself.

But there is a problem, I don't know much about the Love concept as shown in the Advice Forum. I cannot love Jesus in my heart when I don't know what is Love concept.

I see it in movies, couples, married people, etc, but, I can't see myself having that emotion. If I dated a girl, and she'd say she loves me, I truly couldn't say I love her back.

The time I was a Christian, I think I was just being sarcastic that I loved everyone. Actually, I can't go back there, to when I truly was a Christian. Something like a multiple personality disorder, but not that serious. Seems so long ago......

 

[Genesis1315]

But there is a problem, I don't know much about the Love concept as shown in the Advice Forum. I cannot love Jesus in my heart when I don't know what is Love concept.

Thank you for pointing out this topic and possibly error on our part. Yes, while we do love Jesus now, it may not have started that way. I can say with certainty that is was not love that drew me to Jesus but fear. I was terribly afraid of dying and going to hell. I also did not want all of the Christians to be raptured and be stuck down here during the tribulation. It was easier for me to accept the events of the Bible initially than it was for me to accept Christ. I had put trust in people before only to be hurt, sometimes very badly.

The concept of Love that is shown in the movies probably does not really capture the love that God has for us and we have for Him. I don't know if I can really discribe it here other than provide an example. My husband loves God so much that he will turn His life over (and with that, the life of the family) to change into the man God wants him to be. That is a pretty big change and sacrifice to make. Thinking about it.....I am not sure it could be made if he did not love God with all of his heart.

The Bible tells us that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Maybe that would be a better place to start. The fear being discussed is not a terror but a respect or reverence.

Gen

 

[Zeena]

IF

But there is a problem, I don't know much about the Love concept as shown in the Advice Forum. I cannot love Jesus in my heart when I don't know what is Love concept.

I see it in movies, couples, married people, etc, but, I can't see myself having that emotion. If I dated a girl, and she'd say she loves me, I truly couldn't say I love her back.

The time I was a Christian, I think I was just being sarcastic that I loved everyone. Actually, I can't go back there, to when I truly was a Christian. Something like a multiple personality disorder, but not that serious. Seems so long ago......

We CAN'T love CorpFox! Our love is not a pure love, like God's love!

Jeremiah 31:3
The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying: "I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with loving-kindness.

God is the One who has loved us with an everlasting love, not the other way around! haha

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

1 John 4:9
This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

John 13:1
[ Jesus Washes His Disciples' Feet ] It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

That's a pretty discriptive image of Love I would guess..
Now, as for the love of God in you..

Romans 5:5
And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

Ephesians 1:5
In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will

Ephesians 2:4-5
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

And the power, which comes from God to truly Love one another..

John 1:32
Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.

John 15:4
Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

John 15:6a
If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers

John 15:9
"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.

It is the Love of Christ Jesus IN us which Loves wholly

John 15:10
If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Hebrews 8:9
It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

1 John 2
27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Romans 8:11
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Fair warning..Tis ONLY Jesus who Loves wholly.. If you try, you will fail!

Hebrews 12
25See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." 27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

28Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29for our "God is a consuming fire."

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

Matthew 6:24 [AMPLIFIED]
24No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stand by and be devoted to the one and despise and be against the other. You cannot serve God and mammon (deceitful riches, money, possessions, or whatever is trusted in).

Luke 10:27
He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "

Ephesians 3:14-21
14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
20Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever!

Amen.

 

[Dark Virtue]

So I've been curious about something for quite some time.

I understand why Christians proselytize. Given what we belive, we are first of all commanded to, and then just out of concern for people given the alternative for being a "believer."

What motivates Atheists to challenge Christians though, just out of curiosity? I think I almost get it. With my past I have a slight aversion to people who claim to be Christians but don't act like it, and for various career reasons, I have less tolerance than I should with people who are incapable of logic. But for me these reasons make me not want to talk to those types of people... not engage them and try to change them into something I find more acceptable.

Not that I mind, at all. I actually get quite a lot from those questioning threads by DV... more than I ever did at my childhood church, where I tended to be the only voice asking "why?" I like being challenged to think much better than being asked to shut up.

What motivates atheists to challenge Christians? I like to think of it as a pre-emptive first strike. Christians tend to put all non-Christians immediately on the defense by declaring their outlooks as "wrong" compared to Christianity. Christianity is all around us. It's on TV, it's on the radio, it's in the majority of people that you meet, it's even in those who knock on my door early on Saturday mornings. The inherant message being delivered is this: repent or you will be forever damned. Now you may THINK you a doing a good thing by trying to proselytize and convert, but you aren't.

Also consider that the majority of atheists were once Christian or have had enough experience with it to have a firm grasp of Christianity.

In other words, you are wondering why atheists challenge Christians, when you need to step back and objectively see that Christians are issuing a neverending challenge to everyone else. Naturally, there's going to be some sort of resistance. That's why you see these "challenges" to Christianity.

Another reason for these challenges is that, in my experience, many many Christians do things simply because they are told to, or are following familial tradition. Many Christians have no clue why they do the things they do.

Hope that helps.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I have a question to add on to that, Do atheists try to convince Christians to become atheists?

Some do, but I think the majority do not.

Again, you have to keep in mind that most atheists were once Christians, myself included. Atheists will definately try to convince Christians to question their beliefs, to have them question whether or not their beliefs are logical.

But we know that no amount of intellectual shoving will convince a believer to give up their beliefs. There's a barrier that is ingrained in Christians to view any dissenting views as ungodly, unholy, of the devil, etc. I know, I've been there. I've lived it and have seen it on these boards.

Personally I don't believe there's any point in trying to force my beliefs on anyone. That would make me a hypocrite, since that is one of the things I dislike about Christianity.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I got one question as well.
How does the logic of an atheists reasoning stand up before the word of God ?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this question. Would you mind elaborating?

Keep in mind that I don't use atheistic logic, I use logic, period. There shouldn't be a difference between the logic of the atheist and the logic of the Christian.

 

[Jeshurun]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this question. Would you mind elaborating?

Keep in mind that I don't use atheistic logic, I use logic, period. There shouldn't be a difference between the logic of the atheist and the logic of the Christian.

Sorry my question stands and why should I elaborate a straight forward question? You say you have logic so whats the problem answer the question.

 

[Snake_Six]

Keep in mind that I don't use atheistic logic, I use logic, period. There shouldn't be a difference between the logic of the atheist and the logic of the Christian.

But there is. Any logic that isn't used by a Christian assumes that logic (or reason) is the ultimate ruler. It is the ultimate judge of a debate.
Christian ligic (or reason) realizes that it is just a tool. Created by God for a purpose.

 

[Zeena]

most atheists were once Christians, myself included.

We will pray for you too Dark Virtue

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

These thoughts are NOT from God Dark Virtue..

definately try..pre-emptive first strike..intellectual shoving..neverending challenge..

Genesis 4:8
Now Cain said to his brother Abel, "Let's go out to the field." And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.

Genesis 4:9
Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?" "I don't know," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?"

Matthew 12:7
If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

Ezekiel 34:21-22
you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another.

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Many Christians have no clue why they do the things they do.

John 8:12-58
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.
21Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."
22This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"
23But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
25"Who are you?" they asked.
"Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. 26"I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."
27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.
31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
33They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"
34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father."
39"Abraham is our father," they answered.
"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would[d] do the things Abraham did. 40As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does."
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."
42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
48The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"
49"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
52At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. 53Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"
54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!"

Job 38:5
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?

Isaiah 28:17
I will make justice the measuring line and righteousness the plumb line; hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie, and water will overflow your hiding place.

Isaiah 34:11
The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation.

Zechariah 1:16
"Therefore, this is what the LORD says: 'I will return to Jerusalem with mercy, and there my house will be rebuilt. And the measuring line will be stretched out over Jerusalem,' declares the LORD Almighty.

There's a barrier that is ingrained in Christians to view any dissenting views as ungodly, unholy, of the devil, etc.

Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

Isaiah 59:21
"As for me, this is my covenant with them," says the LORD. "My Spirit, who is on you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouths of your children, or from the mouths of their descendants from this time on and forever," says the LORD.

Logic tells us we need a Saviour..

I use logic, period.

Genesis 2:9
And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Genesis 3:4
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.

Genesis 3:6
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Genesis 3:24
After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

John 6:51
[Jesus]I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Romans 6:10
The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

2 Corinthians 5:15
And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

1 Thessalonians 5:10
He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

 

[Dark Virtue]

But there is. Any logic that isn't used by a Christian assumes that logic (or reason) is the ultimate ruler. It is the ultimate judge of a debate.
Christian ligic (or reason) realizes that it is just a tool. Created by God for a purpose.

Guess what?

I think logic is just a tool as well.

Would you mind explaining the reason behind which God created logic?

It doesn't seem that he does anything logical. A prime example of this is your belief in God. It's based on faith, not logic.

Your problem is your belief that there are different types of logic. There aren't. There is only one. You can't play the logic game AND hold to illogical ideals, it doesn't work.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Zeena, do you think you could give me a response in your own words and not cut and paste half the bible in your reply?

And please, don't pray for me. Pray for the starving children in Africa or those dying of AIDS or wounded in battle. They need God's help more than I do.

 

[the_great_eskimo_pie]

Careful everyone. Do not make this a personal attack. Keep it on topic and the argument/debate on the subject, not the person.

 

[Jeshurun]

Guess what?

I think logic is just a tool as well.

Would you mind explaining the reason behind which God created logic?

It doesn't seem that he does anything logical. A prime example of this is your belief in God. It's based on faith, not logic.

Your problem is your belief that there are different types of logic. There aren't. There is only one. You can't play the logic game AND hold to illogical ideals, it doesn't work.

Why should he answer your question when your logic can't even come up with an answer to my question?

 

[Zeena]

Zeena, do you think you could give me a response in your own words and not cut and paste half the bible in your reply?

The word of God is my own word..
For I am One with Him

But, to make this easy for you, I will!

God's makes it clear, yes in scripture, that the man who does not abide in the Love of God, does not abide because of the condition of his soul.. And if they do not come to Jesus for Healing they will fall away..

Personality (or soul) can be wounded by the things that we suffer.. And distorted

You say you attack Christians openly, what do you think this does to thier soul?

Words can be very hurtful, if they stem from a wounded soul..
Words can also bring Life, if grounded thoroughly in the word of God!

Live and let die!
(Zechariah 11:9)

 

[Dark Virtue]

Careful everyone. Do not make this a personal attack. Keep it on topic and the argument/debate on the subject, not the person.

Agreed. For the record, I consider statements made that you will pray for me a personal attack

 

[Dark Virtue]

Why should he answer your question when your logic can't even come up with an answer to my question?

I asked you to elaborate because it wasn't a straightforward question.

The question was, "How does the logic of an atheists reasoning stand up before the word of God ?"

Sorry, but I really don't understand what you're getting at. That's why I asked you, nicely, to elaborate.

I'd rather not write a lengthy response only to have you claim I didn't answer your question or accuse me of avoiding the topic.

The question I have is what you mean by the word of God. Are you referring to the BIble, something else? What?

 

[Dark Virtue]

The word of God is my own word..
For I am One with Him

But, to make this easy for you, I will!

God's makes it clear, yes in scripture, that the man who does not abide in the Love of God, does not abide because of the condition of his soul.. And if they do not come to Jesus for Healing they will fall away..

Personality (or soul) can be wounded by the things that we suffer.. And distorted

You say you attack Christians openly, what do you think this does to thier soul?

Words can be very hurtful, if they stem from a wounded soul..
Words can also bring Life, if grounded thoroughly in the word of God!

Live and let die!
(Zechariah 11:9)

Thank you!

But where did I claim that I openly attack Christians?

 

[Jeshurun]

I asked you to elaborate because it wasn't a straightforward question.

The question was, "How does the logic of an atheists reasoning stand up before the word of God ?"

Sorry, but I really don't understand what you're getting at. That's why I asked you, nicely, to elaborate.

I'd rather not write a lengthy response only to have you claim I didn't answer your question or accuse me of avoiding the topic.

The question I have is what you mean by the word of God. Are you referring to the BIble, something else? What?

Thank you DV for your response, I now have the answer to my question.
Thanks.

Perhaps I'll pose this same question of mine as a topic in RD soon so we can all see how others would respond to it as well. Bye for now.

 

[Zeena]

God has recently shed some Light on this matter, so I will now continue this debate

Thank you!

But where did I claim that I openly attack Christians?

Just fourteen posts down

I like to think of it as a pre-emptive first strike

I also quoted you as saying MORE than just this saying of yours..

definately try..pre-emptive first strike..intellectual shoving..neverending challenge..

And can add to that from your own words if you like...