So you celebrate Easter...

[DarthDapor]

Here's the difference (in my point of view): observing a holiday is just realizing its there (like labor day), Celebrating a holiday is taking part in certain specific activities for that day (such as wearing green on St. Patrick's day). There I answered your question, now please answer mine:

Instead, most Christians are happy playing with plastic eggs and wrapping presents.

Are you saying the Grinch really did steal christmas?

 

[Eon]

Actually, observing a holiday is fulfilling the rituals attached to it.

Celebrating it is holding some sort of feast that's not required and making a special effort.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Here's the difference (in my point of view): observing a holiday is just realizing its there (like labor day), Celebrating a holiday is taking part in certain specific activities for that day (such as wearing green on St. Patrick's day).

The problem you're still having is failing to recognize that observing and celebrating are synonymous. You use "observe" when you are better suited to use "recognize".

There I answered your question, now please answer mine:

Are you saying the Grinch really did steal christmas?

I would be more than happy to answer your question if you were a bit more specific. The Grinch is a work of fiction, Christmas is not.

 

[Watcher]

So its easy to see that even after Jesus had ascended, the disciples made sure to be in Jerusalem when the feasts were taking place. Why make a big deal to go out of there way to be in Jerusalem during these times if they werent there for the Feasts? As far as offering sacrifices, Jesus was and is our sacrifice that we offer to God as atonement for our sins. Observing the feasts is a matter of obedience, and it can be very blessing to see how much symbolism is wrapped up in them. God is amazing, he pays great attention to even the minutest details. Having attended a Passover Seter last week, was quite amazing. It makes me wonder with all the symbolism that is involved how the Jews still fail to see Jesus as there Passover sacrifice. As far as being able to observe the Feast according to Torah, you need to attend a Messianic Congregation during the feasts to see just how its done, its a wonderful thing to be a part of.

Please understand that I'm not trying to take anything away from your choice to observe the Passover. In fact, I encourage you to pursue your decision, as you feel led. However, I refuse to accept your attempt to push a legalistic interpretation on the readers here. Again, there is no mandate in the New Testament for Christians to observe the Passover. What is there is a description not a prescription. For you to imply that Evangelicals are not obeying Jesus’ commandments and by inference sinning is deplorable and irresponsible. If this is not the case, then please accept my apology in advance.

Sourced from Dennis Bratcher - CRI/Voice, Institute

Easter or Resurrection Sunday is the day Christians celebrate the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. There is no question that the early Church saw Jesus’ resurrection as the paramount event in which His resurrection was the central witness to a new event in history and the victory of God vindicating Jesus as the Messiah. His resurrection marked the early Church’s central faith confession and became the focus of Christian worship observed on the first day of each week dating back to the first century (See Acts 20:7 – Sunday was also declared the official Christian day of worship in AD 321). Easter, in its current annual celebration/observance lying at the center of a liturgical year has been observed since the fourth century. Even Churches where the other historic seasons of the Church year aren’t observed, Easter continues to be a central focal point of Christian worship.

The Origin and Significance of Easter:

Before the fourth century, there is no question that Christians observed Pascha, the Christian Passover, in the Spring of each year. There is no doubt that Pascha was adapted from the Jewish Passover, however, Pascha was a redemption festival and commemorated both the resurrection and crucifixion of Jesus as not only propitiation, but also the vehicle for God’s grace.

Historical records are not clear, however, it is likely that early Jewish Christians observed both Passover (Pesach) and Pascha. Many Gentile converts, however, were hesitant to adopt the Jewish festival—especially since the Jerusalem Council decided that Gentile converts to Christianity did not have to observe Jewish religious practices (please see Acts 15).

By the fourth century, with the increasing emphasis on Holy Week and Good Friday, Easter became a distinct Christian celebration of Christ’s resurrection, and Good Friday commemorated His crucifixion and death.

Easter, just like the Passover, is a movable feast. In other words, Easter (just like Passover) is not fixed but determined by a lunar-based calendar system derived from a formula decided by the Council of Nicaea. Easter is always celebrated on the first Sunday following the first full moon after the Spring equinox.

During the Christian Church year, there are two major season cycles: Christmas and Easter. Both are much more than a single day of observance. Just like Christmas, Easter is a period of time rather than just a day. It’s the seven-week season of the Church year called “Eastertide.” Eastertide begins at sundown the evening before Easter Sunday and lasts for six more Sundays until Pentecost Sunday. Those seven Sundays are called the Sundays of Easter which climax on the seventh Sunday (the Sunday before Pentecost). Often, the Sunday before Pentecost is celebrated as Ascension Day. Ascension Day not only marks His resurrection from the dead, but His exaltation from servant to Lord as the climax of Resurrection Day (Eph. 1:20-22).

These days and seasons are a means to shape sacred time, a structure to define what it is to be Christian and to call God’s people to reverent and faithful response unto Him. Easter encompasses a time of preparation (Lent; Advent for Christmas) as well as the following period of reflection on its significance for the life of His people.

Easter Symbolism

The origin of the English name, “Easter” is not certain, but many assume that it is derived from the Teutonic or Anglo-Saxon goddess of Spring, Eostre, or Eastre. That fact and other aspects surrounding Easter observance such as bunnies and eggs, has certainly generated considerable debate concerning the origin of some traditions used in Easter observance. Some argue that Easter is little more than an adaptation of a pagan fertility festival and has little to do with the Christian tradition.

There is little question that many of the Easter symbols have been adopted from other cultures. However, this is true for almost all Christian symbols, including the cross. This has also been the case since the days of Abraham and Moses. God’s people have always used symbols that were familiar from surrounding cultures, and then infused them with new meaning to commemorate and worship God.

During this process, the symbols are transformed into a means to express faith in the only true God in spite of their “pagan” origins. Even the Passover rituals themselves were adapted from two preexisting Canaanite festivals associated with fertility, one celebrating the Spring birthing of livestock (the day of Passover) and the other celebrating the early barley harvest (the week long Feast of Unleavened Bread that begins on Passover).

This only suggests that the origin of the name of Easter or certain aspects of the Easter celebration are not as important as how the symbols were transformed by a worshipping community. This of course does not mean that all elements should be accepted without question as to their Christian connection. We should all emphasize clearly, especially to our children, what we are actually celebrating and the meaning of the symbols, and do it with deliberate purpose. Easter is not a celebration of the coming of Spring! Neither should this allow us to adopt a negative or hypercritical attitude toward the event so that those hearing our witness to His grace and power at work in the world bringing hope and promise of renewal amid endings should only hear grumbling and arguing.

If you want to talk about man-made traditions, lets talk about Christmas, Easter, Ash Wednesday, Lent, Good Friday, Halloween, Thanksgiving....its a long list.
Why do we still refer to Jesus' ressurection as Easter? I would like somebody to explain that to me. Do your research, its easy to find I can assure you. If after you do the research and still want to call it Easter, well then I cant help you. Labeling the ULTIMATE sacrifice of our Most High God after some vile pagan sex goddess is downright appalling. Why not Happy Resurrection, or better yet, Happy Accepted Passover Sacrifice!

Please see above.

So i guess what Im saying is, dont bash Messianic Christians. The ones who need a wakeup call are those who just got done with the easter egg hunt.

In no way was I bashing Messianic Christians, you're my brother in Christ. However, I dissent from your charge that the celebration of Easter is a pagan holiday thus any less holy or sincere than the Jewish Feasts. Again, you are free to observe the Feasts in accordance to the Torah (even though there is no temple nor Levitical priesthood which is in fact part of the ritual), and I encourage you to do so, however, don’t claim something that is clearly not a mandate in the Scriptures and again I charge you to read Acts 15 before applying this legalistic interpretation to those of us here that do not adopt the Jewish practices.

I wish you a blessed close to the Feast of Unleavened Bread tomorrow evening.

 

[Watcher]

You must have missed the part where I said this has nothing to do with obeying a command set forth. This is about following Christ's example. Didn't Christ observe the Holy Days? Shouldn't you, as a Christian, follow his example?

I don't remember Christ or God ordering his followers to observe the pagan inspired Easter or Christmas. Did I miss those verses? I don't remember Christ ordering his followers to celebrate his resurrection or his birthday. I DO however, remember God commanding his followers to observe the Holy Days.

Zech 14 "16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to " and to what? To, "celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles." Hmm, looks like God intends his festivals to be kept even after the return of Christ.

Lev 23 " 31 This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live."

A LASTING ordinance, FOREVER, WHEREVER you live.

I’ll just refer you to my post above. And please don’t bring in the Millennial Reign of Christ from Zech. 14 to try and prove your point. We’re talking about a new Jerusalem and Temple at that point.

Regarding Lev. 23:31 - That's taken completely out of context!

lev 23:30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
lev 23:31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
lev 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

What does Lev. 23:31 have to do with the Millenial Reign celebration of the "Feast of Tabernacles" that you reference in Zech 14? You do realize that the "Feast of Tabernacles" is one of the three major holidays known as the Shalosh Regalim, which mark the three times during the year that the Jewish populace travelled to the Holy Temple in Jerusalem right?

Again, I'll refer you to my post above.

 

[Arkanjel]

First off, let me clarify my position. I am not a legalist. I do not believe that you have to follow the law to be saved. I believe that we should follow the law because we are saved. We should follow the law out of obedience to God. Nowhere have I ever said your not saved because you dont follow the law. Your source has some decent information, but really its the skim milk version. If you want to get into why Sunday is now the day of worship, instead of Saturday, you need to read about the nice roman guy named emperor Constantine. He did everything he could to seperate christianity from its true roots. Needless to say he didnt like the Jews or anything remotely Jewish.

While mans traditions and methods of observance may change throughout time, Gods word is steadfast and unwavering. If you want to get to the true fruit of any plant you have to grow it from the roots, not the branches that have been spliced in. I can honestly say Ive never heard of 7 weeks of easter, but Im guessing that is a Catholic thing.

If you want a good explanation of Easters pagan origins visit here. LINK

Again my problem is not with observing the resurrection, Im all for that. My problem is with the name and the modern churches insistence to include egg hunts and rabbits.

There are a few things that should be clarified from your post.

There is little question that many of the Easter symbols have been adopted from other cultures. However, this is true for almost all Christian symbols, including the cross. This has also been the case since the days of Abraham and Moses. God’s people have always used symbols that were familiar from surrounding cultures, and then infused them with new meaning to commemorate and worship God.

The cross aside, what symbols is he referring to when he speaks of Moses and Abraham?

Even the Passover rituals themselves were adapted from two preexisting Canaanite festivals associated with fertility, one celebrating the Spring birthing of livestock (the day of Passover) and the other celebrating the early barley harvest (the week long Feast of Unleavened Bread that begins on Passover).

Where did this information come from?

I appreciate the clarifications, and I think I have one last one to make.

However, I dissent from your charge that the celebration of Easter is a pagan holiday thus any less holy or sincere than the Jewish Feasts.

I am not saying that celebrating Christs ressurection is a pagan holiday. I am saying why are we celebrating a specifically chrisitan holiday using an obviously pagan name? When God sent the Israelites to claim the promised land he specifically told them to not take up the customs of those they defeated.

Deu 20:18 That, they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.

What have we done today with the observance of the resurrection? We have taken a bit of Wow, look what God did, and added a healthy dose of pagan traditions. What else can it be called when you observe Christs resurection, by hiding easter eggs and eating easter bunnies? Yes you may go to church and sit through a service dedicated to what Christ did for you, but then you go and celebrate it by hiding the eggs. Im not sure if Im making sense, but that really is the only way I can think to explain how you "observe" a holiday by actions.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Please understand that I'm not trying to take anything away from your choice to observe the Passover. In fact, I encourage you to pursue your decision, as you feel led. However, I refuse to accept your attempt to push a legalistic interpretation on the readers here. Again, there is no mandate in the New Testament for Christians to observe the Passover. What is there is a description not a prescription. For you to imply that Evangelicals are not obeying Jesus’ commandments and by inference sinning is deplorable and irresponsible. If this is not the case, then please accept my apology in advance.

If there was no mandate to observe the Passover, would you mind explaining why Christ and his Disciples observed God's Holy Days?

There is little question that many of the Easter symbols have been adopted from other cultures. However, this is true for almost all Christian symbols, including the cross. This has also been the case since the days of Abraham and Moses. God’s people have always used symbols that were familiar from surrounding cultures, and then infused them with new meaning to commemorate and worship God.

At least they admit it.

 

[Dark Virtue]

lev 23:31 was quoted to show that the commandments (and the Holy Days, of which the Feast of Tabernacles is one) were meant to be statutes FOREVER, "throughout your generations".

 

[Berean Todd]

lev 23:31 was quoted to show that the commandments (and the Holy Days, of which the Feast of Tabernacles is one) were meant to be statutes FOREVER, "throughout your generations".

DV, but who was that covenant made with? It was not God's covenant with all people, but His covenant with Israel, whom He had (and has) a special relationship with. The same with the Sabbath ... read the OT and it says in clear, specific words that the Sabbath keeping is a covenant between God and ISRAEL for eternity. We are not Israel, we are the church, and we do not relate to God through the Old Covenant system of law.

 

[Dark Virtue]

DV, but who was that covenant made with? It was not God's covenant with all people, but His covenant with Israel, whom He had (and has) a special relationship with. The same with the Sabbath ... read the OT and it says in clear, specific words that the Sabbath keeping is a covenant between God and ISRAEL for eternity. We are not Israel, we are the church, and we do not relate to God through the Old Covenant system of law.

I was under the impression that Gentiles were meant to learn the Torah.

Acts 15:19-22 "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren."

Notice two things: 1) The Sabbath is mentioned & 2) The Gentiles were being taught the Torah...why do you think that was?

The Gentiles were given four starter laws and were expected to learn the rest.

Matthew 5

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth have not passed.

Also note that FULFILL has several meanings. By reading in context, we see that definition hereis not "to bring an end to" but instead, " to convert into reality, to develop the full potentialities of"

----------

Now we could sit here and argue this all day, with Christians defending their views on both sides of the fence.

HOWEVER, please notice something very important that several of you are glossing over in my posts.

I had not intended to discuss whether or not you should observe/celebrate these Holy Days because you are REQUIRED to, that's a whole different subject, one that we are quickly sliding into. As I have stated from my very first post, Christ didn't command you to celebrate Easter or Christmas, but Christians do, even though they contain pagan influences and rituals. Should Christians not, instead, celebrate and observe those festivals set forth by God?

Please notice the distinction in the subject matter and let's try to stay on course.

 

[Watcher]

First off, let me clarify my position. I am not a legalist. I do not believe that you have to follow the law to be saved. I believe that we should follow the law because we are saved. We should follow the law out of obedience to God.

I assume when you say we should follow the law because we are saved, you mean all of it. You’re basically saying that we are under The Law (The Old Testament) out of obedience to Christ, which goes against practically the entire New Testament. How do you reconcile with the New Testament that states Christians are not under The Law? You can’t have it both ways. If we are still under “The Law,” then it’s the entire law, and you’re saying the New Testament is wrong.

It’s a common misconception that we Christians are expected to live within the laws given to Moses in the Torah. This does, as you know, include keeping ritual sacrifices, wearing tassels on our clothes, sowing our gardens a specific way, keeping a kosher diet, etc. Those laws were given to the Nation of Israel to make them prosperous and to set them apart as his chosen people. The Old Testament should never be taken as a binding set of rules for all people for all eternity.

As I’m sure that you are keenly aware, this is not a new misconception either. The Church has been dealing with this issue since its inception. As Paul made his missions trips, preaching freedom from the Law of Moses I might add, you’ll remember the group of “ex Pharisees” that came in behind him preaching that Gentiles must become Jews before they could become Christians. If you’ll remember, that included circumcision, a kosher lifestyle, and keeping the Law of Moses. When Peter heard this he went before the “Christian sect of Pharisees” and said:

"...Brothers, you know that in the early days God chose me to be the one among you through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows everyone's heart, showed them he approved by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between them and us, because he cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 So why do you test God by putting on the disciples' neck a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we could carry? 11 We certainly believe that it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ that we are saved, just as they are." Acts 15:7-11

How do you explain Acts 15? Paul tells us “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, so that no one may boast.” (Eph 2:8,9)

Paul goes on to say “If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day – things that are a mere shadow of what is to come." (Col. 2:16-17) "For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under Law but under grace.” (Rom. 6:14)

Jesus said, “You shall love the Lord your God with all you hear, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest commandment. The second is like it, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” On these two commandments depend the whole Lan and the Prophets. (Matt. 22:37-40)

In summary, everything comes from love.

If you want to get into why Sunday is now the day of worship, instead of Saturday, you need to read about the nice roman guy named emperor Constantine. He did everything he could to seperate christianity from its true roots. Needless to say he didnt like the Jews or anything remotely Jewish.

Maybe you should reread the story about the nice Roman guy. I’ve already shown in the Scriptures where the early Church worshipped on Sunday…Constantine merely made the first "Sunday closure law", since it had already been the day Christians worshipped for over 300 years.

If you want a good explanation of Easters pagan origins visit here. LINK

Again, this theory has already been disputed. Some philologists say that “Easter” actually comes from the word “east,” which refers to the rising sun, a metaphor for the Resurrection of Christ (see Malachi 4:2). The Dictionary of Bible and Religion mentions another possible origin:

More recent studies seem to indicate that Easter may be derived from the Latin phrase hebdomada alba, the old term for Easter week based upon the wearing of white robes by the newly baptized. The octave of Easter, the following week, was known as post albas, the time when the white robes were put away....Easter may thus mean "white" and be named from early Christian baptismal practices.

Even if Easter is derived from Eostra/Ostara, it would only prove a pagan influence on Christians who spoke Germanic tongues. Not all Christians call the Feast of the Resurrection “Easter.” I’ve already pointed out the Greek term, Pascha which is derived from the Hebrew word “Pesach,” or Passover. Pascha is also the name of this feast in Latin. Other derivatives include Pasqua, Paques, Pascua all ultimately sourced from Pesach. Thus, the Feast of Christ’s resurrection has two names among Christians: Pashca, or Passover, and Easter, which may connote sunrise or white. Either way you look at it, the feast is truly Christian and not pagan,

Again, every Christian who celebrates Easter does not intend to worship the goddess Eostra at all. God looks upon the heart and sees His child’s intention to worship Him. In no way can you equate this to pagan worship or idolatry. That’s legalism.

Again my problem is not with observing the resurrection, Im all for that. My problem is with the name and the modern churches insistence to include egg hunts and rabbits.

You do realize these symbols have always had Christian symbolism attached to them for Christians, right? You also realize that eggs are used in the Jewish seder as well, right? See above about God looking upon the heart of His child’s intentions to worship Him. Neither you nor anyone else is in any position to judge a person’s intentions or what’s in their hearts.

I am not saying that celebrating Christs ressurection is a pagan holiday. I am saying why are we celebrating a specifically chrisitan holiday using an obviously pagan name? When God sent the Israelites to claim the promised land he specifically told them to not take up the customs of those they defeated.

See above. The origin of the name is debatable.

What have we done today with the observance of the resurrection? We have taken a bit of Wow, look what God did, and added a healthy dose of pagan traditions. What else can it be called when you observe Christs resurection, by hiding easter eggs and eating easter bunnies? Yes you may go to church and sit through a service dedicated to what Christ did for you, but then you go and celebrate it by hiding the eggs. Im not sure if Im making sense, but that really is the only way I can think to explain how you "observe" a holiday by actions.

Again, the eggs are not pagan in origin. Many cultures, have used eggs in their traditions including the Israelites.

 

[Watcher]

If there was no mandate to observe the Passover, would you mind explaining why Christ and his Disciples observed God's Holy Days?

Again, I asked where is the “mandate” in the New Testament to keep “The Law.” The New Testament says exactly the opposite. Again, read Acts 15:5-11.

lev 23:31 was quoted to show that the commandments (and the Holy Days, of which the Feast of Tabernacles is one) were meant to be statutes FOREVER, "throughout your generations".

Well, first of all, God is speaking to the Israelites. Again, The New Testament is clear that “Christians” are no longer under “The Law.” Lev. 23:31 is speaking only about the Day of Atonement.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Again, I asked where is the “mandate” in the New Testament to keep “The Law.” The New Testament says exactly the opposite. Again, read Acts 15:5-11.

Why are you working so hard to avoid a simple question?

WHY DID CHRIST AND HIS DISCIPLES OBSERVE GOD'S HOLY DAYS?

I don't know how much simpler to ask it.

 

[Arkanjel]

Ok, before this goes too much further, the history of the early church needs to come to the foreground. What was the early church like? Why did things happen the way they did?

The first 400 years, a history of misconceptions of the Torah

Please read this, it will be enlightening I assure you.

I’ve already shown in the Scriptures where the early Church worshipped on Sunday…

I think I missed where you pointed that out, could you please repost it for me.

Again, every Christian who celebrates Easter does not intend to worship the goddess Eostra at all. God looks upon the heart and sees His child’s intention to worship Him. In no way can you equate this to pagan worship or idolatry. That’s legalism.

Could you please show me the scriptures that tell us to color hard-boiled eggs and hide them for our children to find or to adorn our walls with pictures of rabbits on the anniversary of Jesus' ressurection. Ignorance in this day and age for Christians is a huge factor as to why this stuff still occurs. Assimilating pagan traditions and saying you do them to honor God is really not okay.

Luke 12:48
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[Watcher]

Why are you working so hard to avoid a simple question?

WHY DID CHRIST AND HIS DISCIPLES OBSERVE GOD'S HOLY DAYS?

I don't know how much simpler to ask it.

I don't know how much more clearer I can make it. Jesus observed the Feasts because He was Jewish. That, however, doesn't equal a mandate for Christians. You, on the other hand, think that it does by asserting that "Christians" are "mandated" to observe the Jewish Feasts. I've asked you to show me in the New Testament where this is the case. You point to Jesus, who was Jewish, observing Jewish Feasts. How does that translate to a mandate from our Lord. Not only are you taking liberty with the Scriptures, but you're putting words in Jesus' mouth.

You've tried using the Old Testament to prove a mandate, and I've shown you clearly where that doesn't apply to Christians. Again, read Acts 15. We're not under "The Law."

 

[Dark Virtue]

I don't know how much more clearer I can make it. Jesus observed the Feasts because He was Jewish. That, however, doesn't equal a mandate for Christians. You, on the other hand, think that it does by asserting that "Christians" are "mandated" to observe the Jewish Feasts. I've asked you to show me in the New Testament where this is the case. You point to Jesus, who was Jewish, observing Jewish Feasts. How does that translate to a mandate from our Lord. Not only are you taking liberty with the Scriptures, but you're putting words in Jesus' mouth.

You've tried using the Old Testament to prove a mandate, and I've shown you clearly where that doesn't apply to Christians. Again, read Acts 15. We're not under "The Law."

Watcher, I'm sure that you are aware that we could sit here all day and squabble over the law. Theologians have been doing this for over 2,000 years, have they not?

What happened to Christ coming to fulfill (ie, to develop the full potentialities of) the the Law? Why did God (who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow) create a set of laws that were temporary and only for a set of particular set of people?

And under what authority did Paul repeal/edit the mandates of God and Christ? I wouldn't mind seeing scriptural reference for that. That's what we're talking about here isn't it? The word of Paul that contradicts the will of God and Christ?

Again, this is all besides the point. As Christians, should you not follow the example of Christ? Do you need to be ORDERED to do anything good and just of your own accord? You may not be obligated to follow the letter of the law, but that's not the point. You SHOULD follow Christ's example and observe/celebrate the same festivals that Christ did. But instead, you opt for pagan holidays that held no significance to Christ.

If the law is not important to you, then why do you "keep" the 10 commandments?

 

[Watcher]

Ok, before this goes too much further, the history of the early church needs to come to the foreground. What was the early church like? Why did things happen the way they did?

The first 400 years, a history of misconceptions of the Torah

Please read this, it will be enlightening I assure you.

Well to start, this quote troubles me:

“Many attempt to say Sha’ul’s (Paul’s) teachings superceeded Yeshua’s (Jesus’s), but can the servant superceed the Master, G-d Himself in the flesh? To borrow from Sha’ul, G-d Forbid!”

I’m sure we both agree with 2 Tim. 3:16: “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,” The Berkowitz’ seem to assert that the Scriptures penned by Paul are somehow “beneath” the teachings of Jesus. The reality is, the Bible, including the 13 books penned by Paul are God’s inspired, infallible Word. Paul’s writings, which were “God breathed” have just as much authority as the Gospels, The Torah, The Prophets, and the Hagiographa. There’s no debating that fact.

It also appears that the Berkowitz’ are not applying proper hermeneutics. It appears that they have also passed over Peter’s testimony in Acts 15. The key in this text comes when we consider Peter's testimony regarding the debate with the Pharisee-believers, "and He made no distinction between Jews and Gentiles cleansing their hearts through faith.

"Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?" (Act 15:9-10).

Does that sound like a man encouraging his Jewish brethren to continue in the practice of this futile Law observance? No. And recall that Peter had been entrusted with the Gospel to the circumcised (Gal 2:7). I’d appreciate it if you would address this in your next post. I’d rather not go into refuting the Berkowitz’ entire publication (I’m limited on time today, however I did read the document), but I will address this specific comment:

“For the record, let it be pointedly stated (as we did earlier in this book): Sha'ul chose to uphold the Torah of Moshe. He chose to follow it and to encourage-even teach-other believers in Yeshua to make it their lifestyle. Acts 21:23-26 makes this clear in no uncertain terms.”

There is no question that Paul preached the abrogation of the law of Moses, taught that it was impossible to be justified by it, and therefore we are not bound up any longer to the observance of it.

I have never said that he taught us to forsake Moses—the doctrine he taught did not destroy the law but fulfilled it. He preached Jesus (the end of the law for righteousness), and repentance and faith, in the exercise of which we are to make great use of the law. Where in the Scriptures does Paul encourage or teach others to make the vow he took their lifestyle? This is taking liberty with the text and sidestepping practically everything Paul wrote in the New Testament regarding Gentiles observing the Law.

The bottom line is that there is no mandate for Christians to observe the law. Since the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, it has been impossible to fulfill the over 600 commandments under the Law that revolve around the Temple and the Levitical priesthood. There’s no getting around this fact.

It’s important that Acts 25 be read in context and understood as follows:

Paul met with the leaders of the church at Jerusalem and reported to them what God had done among the Gentiles. They were thrilled with the report and glorified the Lord. They reported to him that a rumor was making its rounds among the Christian Jews in Jerusalem (of whom vs. 20 says there were “many thousands,” indicating the gigantic size of the church there at the time) to the effect that he was telling all Jews who were among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs of their forefathers.

In order to avoid misunderstanding and such a misrepresentation, Paul submitted himself to a vow (vs. 23) to show them that the charges were nothing and that he himself walked orderly in his own personal life. The leaders then reminded him that, as touching the Gentiles which believed, they would abide by their original decision. Therefore, it becomes obvious that while the church was large and the number of Christian disciples was great at this time in Jerusalem, there was still not yet a clear-cut break with their Jewish heritage. It should be observed, however, that the law is not evil in and of itself, but that it is insufficient to bring a man to salvation.

By retaining allegiance to the moral aspects of the law, these Christian Jews were retaining the good part of their cultural and spiritual heritage, while acknowledging Christ as Lord. After the destruction of the Temple and the subsequent dispersion these Jewish Christians eventually discarded the Jewish distinctions. The believing Jews would later come to understand that it was unnecessary to retain outward observance of the ceremonies of Judaism, when the Temple no longer existed.

The future nature of the church in general was already being developed in the Gentile churches where Paul’s missionary efforts were bringing about the most significant results.

Here’s a letter written by a Messianic Jew/Christian to an Orthodox Jewish friend regarding observance of the law by Jewish Christians. It is also understood and accepted that Gentiles are excluded. Here’s an excerpt:

In Acts 21, many of those local Jewish believers in Jesus as the Messiah were "all zealous for the Law" (Act 21:20b) so they too may have been of the sect of the Pharisees (although speculative). When Paul agreed to proceed with the four men under the vow and wait until "the sacrifice was offered for each one of them" (Act 21:26) (it never says he himself made the sacrifice, but maybe it is implied; I am not enough of a scholar on the subject to know), it never speaks of his intent for the entire situation. After careful study and pondering (like I said, I found none of these answers in other study texts), and in light of all Paul preached on the subject, I can only conclude that he was appeasing those "zealous for the Law" and bringing calm to the dangerous situation through regarding his brothers higher than himself. As he said in Romans 14:21 "It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles."

My argument corroborates well with what Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all that I might win the more. And to the Jew I became as a Jew, that I might win the Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law [!], that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without the law, as without the law, but not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, that I might win those who are without the law." (I Cor 9:19-21). In all this he clearly states that he himself was not under the Law!

I think I missed where you pointed that out, could you please repost it for me.

Although the early church was no longer bound to a rigid code of laws or Sabbath keeping (Gal. 3:10-11, Col. 2:16), it is believed that the early church probably came to view Sunday as a combined observance of the Sabbath and the resurrection day of Jesus (Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2). This day of Christian worship came to be called the Lord's Day (Rev. 1:10), a day to fellowship in celebration of the resurrection, to worship, pray and study the Word together. The risen Jesus also appeared to the disciples on two Sundays (Jn 20:19, 26)

Could you please show me the scriptures that tell us to color hard-boiled eggs and hide them for our children to find or to adorn our walls with pictures of rabbits on the anniversary of Jesus' ressurection. Ignorance in this day and age for Christians is a huge factor as to why this stuff still occurs. Assimilating pagan traditions and saying you do them to honor God is really not okay.

Eggs have always been a symbol for the renewal of life (as I’ve shown, eggs are also used during the Seder too). So I assume that you’re saying Jews have also assimilated the pagan tradition of using the egg in their honor and worship of God. See my original point which was God knows the heart of His children and only He is to judge their intentions—not you or me.

It seems this discussion has gotten a little side tracked. In your OP, you stated:

"Observing these feasts does not get you into heaven, only a relationsip with Christ will do that. However someone who does have a close personal relationship with Christ will observe these feasts out of obedience to Christ for telling us to observe them."

Would you please show me where Jesus instructed us to observe the feasts? Also, your original position seemed to indicate that "Easter" was a pagan tradition and I have shown that it is not. Easter, as celebrated by Christians, has always been a Christian tradition with Christian symbolism. Easter has never been about the rabbit and the egg for Christians and for you to assert otherwise is just plain wrong.

Again, hiding easter eggs, that have become a symbol for the renewal of life through Christ's death on the cross makes it no more pagan than the Jews' tradition in using the egg (with the similar symbolism) during the Seder. I don't see how you cannot or will not accept this fact.

 

[DarthDapor]

The Grinch is a work of fiction, Christmas is not.

Please, its still has moral values that are not fiction right? The point is you were really out of line by saying Christians enjoy wrapping presents, and Hiding easter eggs. More so than they do recognizing what you call "God's holy days". From all I've heard God has never told us to celebrate easter or christmas. But man does enjoy celebrating them in the name of God. The only day God specificly has said to set aside is Sunday. You know that day you go to church on?

 

[Watcher]

Watcher, I'm sure that you are aware that we could sit here all day and squabble over the law. Theologians have been doing this for over 2,000 years, have they not?

There is an important distinction that needs to be made here—one between the nation of Israel and Christians.

What happened to Christ coming to fulfill (ie, to develop the full potentialities of) the the Law? Why did God (who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow) create a set of laws that were temporary and only for a set of particular set of people?

When we say that God is immutable, we are referring to His essence, attributes, consciousness, and will, not whether His covenants and dealings with men are temporary or designated for a certain people or dispensation. He can never be more wiser, more holy, more just, more merciful, or more truthful. Additionally, His plans and purposes never change. Immutability is not to be confused with immobility. God is active in and enters into relationships with changing men. In these relationships it is necessary for an immutable God to change in His dealings with changing men in order to remain immutable in His character and purposes. God deals with men differently in many situations. For example: before salvation and after (Prov. 11:20; 12:12; 1Pet. 3:12). He who cannot repent (Num. 23:19), repents (i.e. His dealing with chageable men), when man changes from evil to good, or good to evil (Gen. 6:6; Exod. 32:14; Jer. 18:7-11; Joel 2:13; Jonah 3:10).

And under what authority did Paul repeal/edit the mandates of God and Christ? I wouldn't mind seeing scriptural reference for that. That's what we're talking about here isn't it? The word of Paul that contradicts the will of God and Christ?

You’ll have to show me a contradiction (there isn't one). All of Scripture is God breathed and is His Word. I’ll refer you to my post above and 2 Tim 3:16. God does not contradict Himself. It always comes down to our erroneous interpretation of His Word.

Again, this is all besides the point. As Christians, should you not follow the example of Christ? Do you need to be ORDERED to do anything good and just of your own accord? You may not be obligated to follow the letter of the law, but that's not the point. You SHOULD follow Christ's example and observe/celebrate the same festivals that Christ did. But instead, you opt for pagan holidays that held no significance to Christ.

Again, Easter is not a pagan holiday (I’ve laid this out clearly in my previous posts and really don’t need to repeat it here). You’re right by stating we are not obligated to follow the letter of The Law (including keeping the Feasts). Christians are free to observe the Jewish feasts if they so choose. In fact, I have already stated that I’m personally ok with it. The issue I have is when it is stated that it's a mandate and must be obeyed by all Christians. The Bible simply doesn't say that and in fact says quite the opposite.

If the law is not important to you, then why do you "keep" the 10 commandments?

The Law is important to me and I study it just like everything else in the Bible. The Ten Commandments, for example, show me just how depraved I really am and just how much I need Jesus. But, the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments for example), some of them were to illustrate how to worship God (the sacrificial system), and some of them were to make the Israelites different from other nations (the food and clothing rules).

None of the Old Testament law applies to us today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15).

For Christians, the Old Testament law has technically been replaced. In its place, we are now under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) which is to, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:37-40). If we do these two things, we will be fulfilling all that Jesus commands us to do, “This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

As illustrated above, the Ten Commandments are not applicable to Christians. However, nine of the Ten Commandments are repeated in the New Testament (all except the command to observe the Sabbath day). If we are loving God, we certainly won't be worshipping other gods or idols. If we are loving our neighbors, we won't be murdering, lying, or committing adultery against them, nor will we be coveting anything that belongs to them.

So, we are not under any of the requirements of the Old Testament law. We are to love God and love our neighbors. If we do these two things faithfully, all else will fall into place.

 

[Watcher]

I'll be gone on vacation for a week, but look forward to picking this back up when I return.