COVID-19 community check-in and discussion

[Tek7]

I've been thinking for a few days of how to phrase a topic on the coronavirus pandemic that has left much of the world reeling and disrupted many, if not most, people's daily lives.

You all have been in my thoughts and prayers this last week as the CDC's guidelines have grown ever more strict in the US in an effort to slow the spread of the virus.

If you all have a few minutes, I'd love to hear from our regulars or anyone wishing to post to let us know how you're faring and offer you all a space to tell us how you're doing. If you're anything like me, gathering your thoughts and typing them out can help clear a foggy head.

@Ember and I are doing our best to navigate a turbulent time. We, our children, and our parents are all symptom-free as of this moment. Being on guard constantly is taking its toll on us, just as it's likely taking its toll on you all. We've been abiding by the CDC's recommendations as best we can, but we both work in the health care industry in different capacities and we're still reporting to work. I work in a technology support role, so I've been able to practice social distancing (i.e. hole up in my office and do as much of my work as I can remotely) and I'm grateful for that.

I have posted a prayer request thread regarding the coronavirus, but please don't hesitate to share your prayer requests in this thread as well.

How are you all doing?

 

[Kendrik]

So far, we're doing quite alright. My department (IT) is digging in its heels more than just about any other department at the university as far as recommending work from home goes. The option is available, but requires approval and such. I'm on the edge of pursuing it. Others on my team already have.

Our church is now moving to digital delivery of weekend services too. It's a big deal. I'm leading a small group this semester, and we're doing the same. Fortunately, 15+ years of participating in/leading online Christian communities makes me feel like, "I was born for this!" Ready to hit the ground running as we work on keeping our church connected and active even while practicing social distancing in accordance with federal and local recommendations.

Biggest concern at this point is cabin fever for my wife and kids. (Personally, I'm quite ready to be a homebody for a couple weeks in the name of the greater good.)

 

[Hescominsoon]

So far so good. we are shifting to online service because of the 10 or less mandate. everybody is doing well..i am sure i had covid-19 in feb but came through without incident other than feeling like crap plus a fever which i normally do not have. luckily my remote work has not declined and my other income streams have not been cut off... Hanging on for the ride.

 

[CowRocket]

So far so good over here. Being in transportation, specifically food transportation we have been working like crazy nutz. The Feds have relaxed most of the regulations pertaining to us, so we can do our best to get the needed supplies to the consumers. That being said....

I am incredibility disappointed in our government, fed, state, and local, along with the mainstream media for greatly exaggerating the severity of this virus. Is it bad? o'Yes. Is it so bad to put the world in a state of panic? No, not even close. The rest of my thoughts ill leave under my tin foil hat. Wash your hands, enjoy your months of TP, and most of all Pray.

 

[Krissa Lox]

My family and I are all well. Staying mindful of things as they progress but not at much risk due to living in an isolated area.

It's an interesting time to be working in virtual services but impossible to know where the future will lead, so day-to-day life continues to be to focus on following the Lord and taking care of the present as best as possible.

 

[Tek7]

So far so good over here. Being in transportation, specifically food transportation we have been working like crazy nutz. The Feds have relaxed most of the regulations pertaining to us, so we can do our best to get the needed supplies to the consumers.

Glad to hear you're doing well and still working. My heart breaks for all the waiters, waitresses, and other folks suddenly out of work and scrambling to pay bills. I thank God that I have a job because without His provision, things could be very different.

I am incredibility disappointed in our government, fed, state, and local, along with the mainstream media for greatly exaggerating the severity of this virus. Is it bad? o'Yes. Is it so bad to put the world in a state of panic? No, not even close. The rest of my thoughts ill leave under my tin foil hat. Wash your hands, enjoy your months of TP, and most of all Pray.

I agree that panic is not helpful and hoarding supplies like toilet paper is making an already bad situation worse, but I don't believe the severity of the coronavirus is being exaggerated.

So long as you and I agree to follow the CDC recommendations and do our part to slow the spread of the virus, we can agree to disagree regarding whether or not mainstream media exaggerated its severity. God willing, we'll all be around in 6 months to find out who was right.

And in this situation, I would love to be wrong.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

So... I had this whole story drafted about what I wanted to cover but had yet to edit it to coherence and look up links. Then I listen to Shapiro and he covers the majority of it from...

Trump's car comparison (which I explicitly had already written down days before Trump said it).

To Trump derangement syndrome obscuring everything. He could do right, he could do wrong but we will never know if "Orange man always bad, cannot get re-elected".

To backing banks to give out no, or low, interest loans to businesses instead of throwing out money.

To Pelosi throwing in a bunch of diversity garbage that should not have been in the bill (see for yourself this is the version from two days ago https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZBKx2BQ9DlA8ohBIE7ORcdvLX8j3C9Ug/view).

To that killing the economy will cost lives too and that it may simply not be possible to be out of work as long as we'd like.

To Dan Patrick's comments. Could have been phrased better but not morally unsound like they make it out to be.

To that until we have widespread and accurate testing we can't know death rates.

To we are in an unprecedented situation and that no one knows enough of anything so assigning blame is dumb at this point (except China, we know enough to blame them. That and they are probably still lying).

Just watch Shapiro's show for 80% of my opinion (he basically batted 100 this time) but understand it's not that I watched his show and agreed with him. It's that I already held these opinions and he agreed with me. Which is why I watch him because I've never found someone who agrees with me so much . Here is the show you can just skip the ads by looking at the video thumbnails.

Also I am not a shill. I frequently glance at the other side CNN, MSNBC, ABC, The New York Times, etc. at least until my eyes roll out of my head. Just don't expect me to watch late shows like Colbert or shows like The Young Turks, erp.

Shapiro mentioned South Korea has the equipment from the last disease they had but he didn't mention the government tracking of cell phones and credit cards something that should not fly here (video) . It's rather disheartening no one in the Youtube comments even objects to that.

Also Trump should not have talked about having large Easter services yesterday because even if we did go back to work in 18 days groupings like that still won't be advisable. It's good for the economy to say things like that but it's fodder for news outlets to rail on him. I haven't watched Shaprio's show today so he will probably cover that.

 

[Snowflake]

The Lord has blessed us. Our life has not changed much since this plauge started. We're homebodies anyway, so the restrictions haven't affected us. We've spent years stocking up for a disaster, so we have plenty of supplies. The only thing that is concern is that I'm a First Responder, so wife always worries that I may catch something from a patient.

Honestly, the Lord has blessed us so much that I am asking how I can use those blessings to bless others.

 

[Hescominsoon]

Covid-19 – HCS's Place

 

[Tek7]

Hey-o, this is Tek, checking in again.

Life has more or less settled in to a new normal with @Ember at home with the kiddos and trying to juggle chores, quasi-homeschool, video calls for extracurriculars, and other responsibilities and me still working 40 hours a week. Like many others who still work outside the home, I immediately shower after getting home then wipe down my phone and other devices I used at work.

We've been able to secure essentials, like groceries, but had difficulty getting certain staples like chicken and toilet paper. Some time soon, we'll need to figure out a way to get more hand soap.

All things considered, we are amazingly fortunate and we thank God every day for getting us through. We're aware that many others have struggled far more than we have. We are grateful for what we have, praying for those on the front lines and for those hit hardest by the virus, and abiding by our state's stay-at-home order to help slow the spread.

I'm also really, really looking forward to things getting back to normal and being able to work at more than just one job site a day. (I work as a field tech, so staying put has been a major change for me.) Work is strange right now, but I'm so grateful that I'm still collecting a paycheck.

The Lord has blessed us. Our life has not changed much since this plauge started. We're homebodies anyway, so the restrictions haven't affected us. We've spent years stocking up for a disaster, so we have plenty of supplies. The only thing that is concern is that I'm a First Responder, so wife always worries that I may catch something from a patient.

Honestly, the Lord has blessed us so much that I am asking how I can use those blessings to bless others.

@Snowflake I've re-read your post several times in the last two weeks and continue to pray for you and your family. I hope this reply finds you and your family well.

 

[Tek7]

In an effort to keep discussion of related topics on track, I'm going to quote posts from a different thread and move the discussion here.

Meanwhile, most folks are completely ignoring the collapse of the economy which effects all of us. Want to change something that actually matters? Read, watch, and listen then tell your friends about this.

I'm not aware of anyone who's ignoring the collapse of the economy. I've had several conversations with friends and co-workers and money is--with good reason--on their minds.

I do not envy the officials who have to make decisions and recommendations trying to balance saving human lives and not letting the economy collapse any further than it already has. The information is incomplete and it's impossible to accurately forecast every consequence of even seemingly minor decisions. Let's please pray for those in authority, not just for our own sake, but for theirs as well.

I'll try to put aside some time to chime in but it takes a while to edit and compile a wall of text and I need to sleep. The short of it is China, the CCP government, is bad people which cannot be allowed to use accusations of racism as a defense. It's more complicated but I all I have time for ATM.

While I don't see how Asian Americans speaking out against racism equates with defending the government of China, we can discuss the actions of China's government without tying it to issues of race.

I've spent a chunk of my afternoon on forum posts already, so I ask for a measure of grace as I copy/paste from a Snopes article:

For example, it is factual to state that the Chinese government hid, downplayed, and misrepresented to its citizens and the world the threat posed by the novel coronavirus.

Source: https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/04/01/covid-19-bioweapon/

 

[Hescominsoon]

I have made a long series of posts about how this whole lockdown was predicated on lies...and the entire government is complicit from federal all the way down to local: https://hescominsoon.com/archives/category/health/pandemic/covid-19

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

Sigh, part one of a typical Gerbil novella incoming about the Statement on Racism thread...

First a disclaimer. I'm certain everyone here is against the abuses of racism or for that matter treating people badly regardless of cause. I want everyone to understand that up front because the nonsensical accusations of racism, bigotry, and homophobia have too long been the go to refrain to be heaped upon anyone who disagrees with popular culture. I believe this fact is responsible for bringing many, many, people to hatred, division, and siding with racists even when they aren't racist themselves. Hatred is the natural result of being called names, belittled, and having everything you say ignored.

Just as a reminder, the subject of the document linked in the original post was the Asian American Christian Collaborative's statement on racism in the time of COVID-19. I didn't see any reference to the government of China, in either a positive or negative context, or the global or US economic fallout in the statement linked in the OP.

Er, no, Tek it's not a separate subject. It's right there and the main reason for my objections...

"Furthermore, despite international consensus, public outcry, and increasing racism against Asian Americans, some of our nation’s leaders are intentionally choosing nomenclature for the novel coronavirus (COVID-19), such as the “Chinese Flu,” and this is endangering the lives of more than 20 million Americans."

Hmm what could they be referring to? When asked Trump explicitly said he called it the Chinese flu because it was from China. In this video he explicitly links "Chinese Flu" directly to China, the country, not Chinese the race. At the very least including this in the statement makes it no longer a generic rejection of racism but, for good or bad, directly political. Christians should get political because the majority of the time it's a question of morals. I just disagree with their stance here. There is a whole debate over what terms to use they don't like Wuhan either and look they quoted the WHO hmm. What I find peculiar is when people try to blame China for Corona it's "inappropriate in a time of crisis" and "shifting blame" but the same people are all in on blaming Trump in a time of crisis, so, so, odd, that, hmm (yes this is satire). Also I really hope "international consensus, public outcry" over the term doesn't include China, the WHO, or liberal leaning networks because I don't think it means conservative ones.

Well what term could we use to be more accurate as to where blame lies? We could call it the China Flu but no one calls Chinese food "China Food". Odd that Chinese food is not a racist term too. Seems like you are only allowed to use nationality on positive, or innocuous things, but never negative. We could call it the CCP (CPC) virus as one of the videos below suggests but "virus" is ambiguous. So I guess we have to call it the CCP's Covid-19 virus to be correct. Not only does that not roll off the tongue but CCP still means Chinese Communist Party (CPC Communist Party of China) so why wouldn't that cause racism too? I also don't think racist loons are going to note the difference if they aren't noting the difference between Asian and Chinese (20 million would be all Asians not just Chinese). The point is I am willing to bet if you blame China at all, regardless of how you do it, you will have more incidents of racism. There has to be a limit on how many degrees of stupidity you are expected to allow for.

Before Trump called it the "Chinese flu" it was already being called "Wuhan" and "China's Coronavirus" from news organizations who now label it as racist, weird huh? Many diseases are called for where they originated trying to sanitize them for idiots is a fool's errand. If they wanted a "safe" name just pre-name them, like hurricanes, but I'm not a doctor, and glad of it, considering my experiences with their "caring". You cannot let the fear of possible racism stop people from saying the truth or from talking like a human being for that matter.

While I don't see how Asian Americans speaking out against racism equates with defending the government of China, we can discuss the actions of China's government without tying it to issues of race.

Except China IS actively using accusations of racism to shield itself from responsibility /see the racism video below. The whole point of people deliberately calling it the "Chinese Flu" or "Wuhan" was to tie Corona to China. They have actively fed stories to publications they control and the mainstream media picks them up. Not that they wouldn't be calling Republicans racist anyway.

Side note I have never believed the theory on it being a bio-weapon because it's pretty pathetic if it's meant to be deadly.

IF YOU LOOK AT NOTHING ELSE IN MY POSTS WATCH THE "HOW THE CCP USES RACISM" VIDEO BELOW:

How the CCP uses propaganda

How the CCP uses racism

On the WHO 1
On the WHO 2

Yes that channel may be biased against China, yes he is sometimes more satirical than I would like, no he is not racist his wife is Chinese, no I don't believe he lies. I've watched him off and on long before Trump took office. I've also looked up things on China elsewhere but only piecemeal while that channel has many issues in one place. Actually I started looking up things on China on these forums long ago when discussing debt and China's one child policy. Note the biological weapon video on the channel is not what you think. He does have a point on the division the term "Chinese Flu" causes but I also disagree on who should change. I will always go with meaning, intent, and context, not what people think something is.

I know you agree the CCP is not good people Tek but for those who don't know look up China and Taiwan, Tibet, the military bases, people disappearing and reappearing only to repentantly cry on national TV, the human rights abuses, it goes on and on. My Father's friend's son was in jail there for proselytizing. This generation should have known China is bad the moment Xi Jinping declared himself President for life. Last generation should have known from Tiananmen Square. Yet a lot of these news sources still site China and the WHO for information.

Also I'm neither exonerating, nor accusing, Trump of acting slow on Corona (different subject) but there is this bizarre ideology that seems to think one side being guilty means the other must be innocent. People like this who willfully ignore blaming China and the WHO at all. There will be, and is, a push to not mention China, or Chinese, at all for fear of causing more incidents of racism. The Chinese people are the ones suffering the most from the CCP. If you claim to care about Chinese people we cannot be silent.

To compare. Stressing the guidelines on Corona at all HAS resulted in panic and crime. Does that mean we should we be silent on Corona?
Trump talks about a possible treatment to inspire hope. Then articles infer people died from him talking. Should we not give hope then? (Some articles purposely left out they took fish tank cleaner and were not dewy eyed Trump supporters but donated to Democrats).
Likewise we cannot be silent about China because racism is an inevitable byproduct.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

PART TWO:

Next I find it difficult to believe that the majority (not all because there will always be exceptions for idiots and loons) of these cases involve physical contact or risk when the assumed impetus for the cases is fear of Corona which means "I don't want to get near you". Point in case was the Febreze guy. The man is a jerk and moron, Febreze really -_-, but, ASSUMING there is nothing more than is shown in the video is this worth prosecuting? He wanted the guy to move whooooo. It's not even clear if it's because he is Asian or just too close (to him, his stuff, or the door?). Regardless it's being investigated for a possible hate crime. Was anyone hurt? Did he even call anyone names? I am MORE afraid of overactive hate crime prosecution and a waste of resources than Asians smelling dryer fresh. Again I am NOT justifying the behavior only there are more important things to be handling and people already calling for more government intervention/control that we do not need. There are of course far worse cases but again it is foolish to try to cajole loony toons with political correctness.

Think of it this way if we go as far as to denounce the phrase "Chinese Flu" we are hypocrites for not denouncing violent video games and movies for causing violence. If a person can't tell the difference between a race and a country, or different races, or how viruses are transmitted, how can you expect them to tell the difference between proper applications of violence? It is meaning, context, and intent that should be considered in what we say.

Why don't we spend some of that racial outrage catching the woman who sprayed Lysol in a Walmart employee eyes when she was told there was a limit on purchase? Wait, wait, I forgot it wasn't classified as a hate crime that means it's not as bad -_-. Seriously that "hate crimes" are somehow worse than the same exact crime, without racism, is idiotic and racist in of itself. If I pre-meditatively murder you for your wallet you are just as dead as if I did it because you are X color. We can and should look to causes, including racism, to prevent crimes but all crime is selfishness.

I believe some of the talk here was born of concern for members who are Asian. We care about you but remember God does not give you a spirit of fear 2 Timothy 1:7 . If you are confronted with racists say "I'm not Chinese" or "I've never been to Asia" or "you are more likely to get Covid from a New Yorker" or maybe just "I don't want you near me either". Some are hateful people others are just irrationally afraid. Maybe the solution is for the media to stop ginning up fear but then they never take responsibility for anything. You can try to educate idiots but without a willing spirit it's never happening and one cannot obfuscate the truth to try to do so. There is no governmental or populous push for racism as in the past (at least from the side people are willing to see) so these cases of racism are not comparable. As sin is a certainty there will always be these people but it is not certain the truth will be spoken.

We are already living in a time that people are supposed to stray 6 feet apart from EVERYONE, that alone sounds absurd, context people. If people want to stay away from Asians more, even though incorrect, it's not an unfathomable leap of logic. The first thing we did was ban travel from China. That wasn't racist, it was against a country, but in practice that was keeping Asians away from us (yes I'm certain there were other races traveling but I'd think the majority would be Chinese). That people haven't updated their information with the spread of Corona is less racist than stupid. Actually there is some research about a difference in infection rates among races but good luck if you get "racist" findings. Technically infection rates are higher in men than women so when more women are abused those people aren't actually afraid of Corona as much as using it as an excuse to act on underlying fear, hate, and selfishness.

I understand we should pick our words with care to not be misunderstood, but, the amount of language we tolerate is far, far, more, and worse, than the term "Chinese flu" so maybe someone else needs to learn some tolerance for a change. I already have to be around people, Christians no less, taking God's name in vain regularly. Having to moderate every utterance, every winsome fart, to have to explain a complete worldview in every sentence lest you be misunderstood is an absurd, impossible, standard. Political correctness is a disease which breeds it's own form of hate of which I am not immune. I pick my words based on their meaning. That's the only logical way to live because you can't assume how someone else may or may not define it in their head. It's counter intuitive but if you press people over "Chinese Flu" you will push some to hate, exactly what we don't want. I am certain this is the case because it's how I feel. Idiots and bigots will always exist and at some point you cause more pain and hatred hiding the truth in the vain effort to not provoke them. This reminds me of talking about gay rights and how I apparently can't phrase my moral objections polite enough.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

PART THREE:

Harmful tropes of “yellow peril” continue to be perpetuated by the news, within institutional and popular portrayals of our people, our food, and our customs as unsafe and unwelcome. Consider, for example, images of Asian peoples in masks while reporting on COVID-19. This framing has had a negative impact on the lives of many Asian Americans, including discrimination targeting Asian businesses and enterprises in the U.S., as well as verbal and physical assaults against Asian persons.

I agree, I wouldn't use the term "yellow peril", that's fine, but I'm not sure what major news organization is using it, Google only brings up news sites denouncing it.

Next no, no, and alternately no, food, customs, or what we are really talking about, cultures, are NOT created equal, people are created equal. People conflate "equally valued" with "equal in ability". People are, or should be, equally valued because they are all made in the image of God and endowed by God with an eternal soul, they are not merely animals. However no two individuals have ever had equal ability whether they are identical twins or different races. Likewise ideas are not equal and customs are just ideas, some right, some wrong. In this case the custom of eating wild pangolins and bats lead us here and it would be dumb NOT to call it out. The disease had an origin and whether that origin is entrenched in customs or not should be irrelevant to denouncing it. Yeeeash I was just as critical of the Christians who had choir practice, a custom, and spread Corona around.

Also I was under the impression that in many Asian countries, like South Korea who they keep showing and saying they have masks, it is common to wear masks when sick. In showing this you are reporting the truth. Furthermore I have also always viewed Asians wearing masks as a positive, not a negative like they have more disease. That they were in fact being more considerate than western countries in doing so. I literately told my mother yesterday we can't do it here because people will use it to rob places. Really do we have to make sure they show a broad spectrum of people wearing masks when it is not even representative of those who actually do? Again truth over political correctness always.

An irrelevant side note about WWII Japanese internment camps, because it was linked in the other thread...

Spoiler

Yes they were horrible, yes not nearly enough was done to protect property, yes there was huge racism, yes they were far, far, too wide in their scope. I've always agreed on those points, totally, but, as I've tried to make the point before one must also view history in the context of the times. Everyone's rights were suspended during war. Enforced rationing, work and businesses were controlled and repurposed, and the draft forced people to go fight and die or risk shame, condemnation, or prison. Looking at context is not to condone a sin, all have sinned, but things always look worse without looking at what people had to work with, functionally and ideologically.

Furthermore there was at least a little logical precedent for internment, it was knee jerk reactionary, but not 100% racial. The Japanese actually toured and studied America prior to the war, the Japanese preference for death to surrender was not exaggerated, many worshiped Hirohito who was directly involved in planing the war from day one, and Pearl Harbor was a pre-calculated attack. To not consider the concept of spies in the face of fanaticism is absurd. Again I'm positive many poor sad souls came to America to escape these things, many Japanese hated American Japanese as traitors (that would mean the Japanese themselves were racist expecting loyalty), but a border crossing does not mystically change a persons values (I have witnessed both good and bad immigrants in Texas). As a Christian I would follow God before my country. How could I possibly believe any different of someone else who showed faith in their god (technically descendant of a god). They were actually asked if they would swear allegiance to America and renounce loyalty to Hirohito. Many basically said no out of their poor treatment, uncertain citizenship, or to avoid the draft but many also emphatically said yes. My point is if "I" would have sworn it and if "I" can be drafted why not you? Equality doesn't always work in your favor. Seriously I'll denounce racism all day long, but, for those few that just got off the boat or who have duel citizenship, it is ludicrous you cannot even ask them to pick a side. Belief not race determines a person's actions.

I do not believe there were many Japanese spies (we will never know if internment stopped anything). There was a German spy ring though and this guy. Again in no way is it's justification for the mass internment but that the idea you can ignore a person's country of origin, all their beliefs, in war, or otherwise, is absurd. People have different beliefs and not all are compatible with democracy.

In the end the internment was an unnecessary suspension of rights that caused much suffering. It was however war, and on an unprecedented scale to boot, so I disagree with that it was caused completely by racism. More accurate to say people were afraid and looking to blame someone for Peal Harbor which resulted in racism.

Even Lincoln suspended the freedom of speech of newspapers that supported the south.

Oddly the argument against the Corona lock down is it's an unnecessary suspension of rights that is causing much suffering.

Want to talk about terrible things? How about the Bataan death marches (which was deliberate not supply based like some say), the comfort women (which took to 2015 to acknowledge), the vivisection experiments (some on Americans too and again still barely acknowledged in 2015), the burying Chinese alive. Fun fact the Japanese used to have some pretty racist views on the Koreans and Chinese and probably vice versa. Actually I've read, IDK if true, that Japan is still reluctant to teach WWII was even wrong in school, likely considering some anime.

Again America has messed up plenty of times but these things must be viewed in historical context, we are and continue to be one of the better countries. I believe in American exceptionalism never perfection. Being a Christian does not make you perfect, it makes you forgiven, but acceptance of having faults means you try to be better than you are. America is based on Judeo-Christian concepts and like Christianity it is a history of trying to be better than we are. We should never be blind to our faults Matthew 7:5 but for a long while I've felt like we, Americans, and even more being a southerner, are only allowed to condemn ourselves. Never allowing one to feel good about anything is a certain way to breed hate. Again truth should be our guideline not political correctness.

Tying this up I've seen people call "Japs" a racist term and yet ignore, "Brits", "Yanks", "Tex" or other common shortenings of the same time period (if anyone, I'm not, should be insulted it's the Southerner called a Yank but I digress). Shortening a word doesn't make it racist it's the context, intent, and definition of a word that makes it an insult. You can make "boy" an insult "don't cross me boy" or a term of endearment "that a boy", "one of the boys". Same thing for stereotypes they can be used to degrade or they can just be true to a culture. That's what a culture is a collection of stereotypes. Because shorter terms roll off the tongue easier I will probably just call the disease "Corona" or "Covid", even if less accurate than other terms. Regardless I don't think many of the longer terms are racist either. Call it the Chinese Flu, Wuhan flu, CCP Flu or even Kung Flu if you like, these infer origin not race. I find no logical reason or grounds to abuse random Asians, who might not even be Chinese, because of it.

I don't think the https://asianamericanchristiancollaborative.com/ are bad people I just believe truth is more important than safety. If they had been more specific and called for a condemnation of China with an alternate more exacting nomenclature, one they found acceptable and less open to racial misinterpretation, I might have been on board. They didn't and it implies the alternative is silence lest they object again. You can't just punish people in life you have to give them a way to go especially when what they are doing, though perhaps hamfisted, is correct. As it is it reads as being influenced by China and political correctness. Gah I want to agree, for Tek if nothing else, but I cannot.

I will likely make minor edits for comprehension, grammar later but Gerbil collapse now T_T.

 

[Tek7]

Well, it took me some time to finish reading all 3 posts, but I did it!

Regarding Trump's insistence on using term "Chinese flu": I agree there is merit to the argument that the term "Chinese flu" is not racist, just as the term "Spanish flu" referring to last century's pandemic is not racist; however, a leader must consider not only the intent but also the potential consequences of his or her words. While I often say that communication breaks down at the point where intent is assumed, I also recognize that insisting on continuing to label this pandemic the "Chinese flu" gains nothing and risks increasing tensions between Asian Americans and their neighbors in a time that's already tense enough. Choosing to use the scientific name of the virus or a short form thereof doesn't excuse China's documented negligence in responding to this disease, but that subject is better discussed in other arenas of life, such as legal courts. This is not a matter where silence equates to capitulation or submission, but rather to a recognition that our efforts are better spent elsewhere.

I also agree that defending inhumane or dangerous activities in the name of "culture" is unwise and harmful, whether that's the "running of the bulls" in Spain or eating pangolins or bats in Asia; however, I went back to the AAPC statement and did not find any statement suggesting that all cultures are created equal, but perhaps I overlooked such a statement.

In regards to teaching about Asian-American oppression, including the Japanese internment camps on US soil during World War II, I believe it's important to teach on the history of war, but agree that it's disingenuous to teach on the subject without considering the context or complexities of the time. How do military leaders address the possibility that people who emigrated from an opposing nation may hold allegiance to said nation but still treat those individuals with respect and dignity and not assume guilt? I don't know, but I can not accept that internment camps were the right solution (and I don't mean to imply that you or anyone else is arguing that they were).

Race is a sensitive subject, but that's all the more reason it should be discussed calmly and rationally, which is very difficult to do when online communication strips non-verbal cues such as tone of voice from the conversation. I agree that people who are quick to call others racist with little evidence to support their claim, whether they be individuals discussing these topics online or officials representing their respective governments, do a great disservice to each other and to themselves by denying others channels for civil discourse.

Are public forums the place to discuss controversial topics? After over 20 years leading online communities, I'm not convinced. People typically will share their own views, but I've seen very little interest in reexamining beliefs in the last 2 decades. That's not to say it doesn't or can't happen. It's just been my experience that people usually have their mind made up when they join the conversation and post primarily to prove themselves right or make their own viewpoint and reasoning known. I just spent 30 minutes typing out a post to make my viewpoint known, so I'm not suggesting that I'm an exception to what experience has taught me.

When all said and done, we can agree that (1) man is inherently selfish and sinful, (2) discrimination based on race is bad, and (3) only Christ can us from our sin and restore us to right standing with God.

And while we should be students of history and seek to engage in conversations on controversial topics after reading reliable information, I'm reminded of Ecclesiastes in moments like these:

Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Ecclesiastes 12:12, ESV

I have no doubt we could spend months discussing these topics, but for today and for now, I conclude my post.

 

[Tek7]

Regarding Trump's insistence on using term "Chinese flu": I agree there is merit to the argument that the term "Chinese flu" is not racist, just as the term "Spanish flu" referring to last century's pandemic is not racist

Ope, looks like the term "Spanish flu" may be a misnomer and the WHO set guidelines for naming diseases based on attributes rather than suspected point of origin in 2015:

While the genetics of the virus are largely undisputed, the exact location where it began infecting humans is not. The U.S. recorded its first patients in the spring of 1918, all of whom were military men fighting in WWI. Almost simultaneously, in March and April, health officials in other parts of North America and across Europe and Asia reported cases, too, according to virologists.

Attempting to avoid naming mistakes of the past, the World Health Organization (WHO) in 2015 issued new guidelines for labeling diseases and called on scientists, journalists, and elected officials to follow the rules “to minimize unnecessary negative effects on nations, economies and people,” a WHO statement said.

Instead of using diseases’ presumed sites of origin, the public should refer to infections based on the virus’ genetic makeup or symptoms, among other scientific characteristics, the WHO said. “[Disease] names really do matter to the people who are directly affected,” said Dr Keiji Fukuda, WHO’s former assistant director-general for Health Security. “We’ve seen certain disease names provoke a backlash against members of particular religious or ethnic communities, create unjustified barriers to travel, commerce and trade, and trigger needless slaughtering of food animals.”

Source: https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/04/09/how-did-spanish-flu-get-name/

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

Well, it took me some time to finish reading all 3 posts, but I did it!

YAY!... I wrote another have fun! /runs away... I'm sorry T_T.

TLDR un-polite version of my next three posts. The AACC is leftist which is confirmed in it's statement, blogs and book list. It directly ignores talking points of the right on China, black racism and immigration to insult them by calling them racist, xenophobic, nativist and selfish.

Regarding Trump's insistence on using term "Chinese flu": I agree there is merit to the argument that the term "Chinese flu" is not racist, just as the term "Spanish flu" referring to last century's pandemic is not racist; however, a leader must consider not only the intent but also the potential consequences of his or her words. While I often say that communication breaks down at the point where intent is assumed, I also recognize that insisting on continuing to label this pandemic the "Chinese flu" gains nothing and risks increasing tensions between Asian Americans and their neighbors in a time that's already tense enough. Choosing to use the scientific name of the virus or a short form thereof doesn't excuse China's documented negligence in responding to this disease, but that subject is better discussed in other arenas of life, such as legal courts. This is not a matter where silence equates to capitulation or submission, but rather to a recognition that our efforts are better spent elsewhere.

Would we be having this discussion, or would you have looked up the things on China you did, if the term used had been meaningless or clearly racist?

I agree Trump needs more discernment in his talking, but the promise of Trump, why he got elected was the belief he would fight back and not be silent. Bush, the last conservative President, defended himself but never pushed back. Between telling us how great everything is /eye roll Trump will occasionally say something obvious that needed to be said another president would not have.

"Chinese Flu" does gain something if it blames the race it certainly blames the country too. That fact is openly admitted in a lot of people's arguments against the term except, in this case, the country deserves blame. If it's the truth, if China must be held accountable, and China themselves did not like it (that means it was doing something), I can't denounce it.

As I stated in my earlier post if they want people to stop using the term, I'm fine with it, but, give me a term that blames China and doesn't rile loons, I don't think one exists. I understand the idea of blaming China without a term but that makes it functionally harder to bring up and you will still incite loons. In a media world of lies of omission it's already hard enough to be heard.

Is a term specifically necessary to getting things done against China. Probably not but no one knows what it will take to permanently tie Corona to China in people's minds. If you don't there are people actively seeking to sweep it under the rug for China or politics. People are also shallow and motivated most by emotion. Once they start going back to their lives and the next "thing" comes along feelings fade and they won't be as willing to make the economic sacrifices necessary to cutting dependency on China. Legal courts won't be enough by themselves either we actually won the fight against China's illegal military bases, nothing happened, and everybody forgot about it. If you are going to ever change anything people have to stay angry enough to go the distance that's just how it is. How many controversies just go away when people lose interest? In the middle of all this China still got appointed to a panel on the U.N. Human Rights Council -_- . We also definitively know the WHO lied (see earlier videos) but some people still defend them...

If the WHO thought it could sacrifice a bit of its credibility – overlooking China’s obvious blunders in December and January in exchange for its compliance in February – and move on, it was mistaken. The argument over China’s influence has been raging for weeks, not least since the government of Taiwan claimed that the WHO had ignored its own early reports of human-to-human transmission of coronavirus as part of a larger history of appeasing China – which has blocked Taiwan from joining the WHO (and the UN) for decades.

Now that Trump, scrambling for an answer to explain why the US now has more cases of coronavirus than any other nation, has alighted upon the WHO and China as his preferred scapegoats, these questions will not go away. “I don’t think we will see the US government cut off funding,” said Fidler. “But what’s happened with this pandemic – with the WHO caught between the US/China rivalry – is not a good omen for the WHO going forward.”

Even with the lengths that article goes to to make the WHO sound like babes it still admits to them covering up. Then it immediately goes to "it's Trump scapegoating" and distorts the more cases fact. We are the third largest population. China, the largest, is lying and likely has poorer testing. While India, the second largest, has one of the lowest test rates per capita in the world.

Look I'm sure the WHO does some good things but they are corrupt and that needs to be addressed.

The fact we know these things about the WHO, and more so the decades of things against China, and people still resist doing anything says definitively not enough outrage is there. How much is required then? Flatly until China's government destabilizes and their people rise up. That's a long term goal mind you but one that needs to happen. To maintain stability is the very reason China lied about Corona to begin with.

I ask the question on the opposite end was it necessary to object to "Chinese Flu" because if one argues it incites racism I argue overactive word policing should too. Every time you see someone angry about SJWs things like this that is where that anger comes from. Reading some of the comments on the news articles AACC linked there are definitely people mad about it.

One may argue that the subject of China is beyond the scope of a racism statement but when they condemn the term while ignoring the reasoning behind using it they lose any neutrality. It's like "You're wrong but I'm not going to acknowledge your reasoning by addressing it". Like much media it's a lie of omission. Worse you'd think that of any place an Asian American Christian Collaborative would be all for taking the opportunity to blame China considering it's treatment of Asian Christians but no. I'm sorry, it sounds cruel, but the way the AACC reads Christians in China aren't worth a mention if it goes against their narrative. You don't have to listen to me. Quoting AACC's blog about them ignoring racism towards blacks...

One of the sad realities of the sinfulness in humanity that emerged from the fall in Genesis 3 is how people often don’t care about what doesn’t directly impact them–especially when caring is costly.

Odd they addressed racism against blacks but not China isn't it?

Once more I'd like to reiterate before Trump was ever in politics I condemned China. I am not following Trump though I do cheer when he does something good.

Was Trump playing 4D reverse chess using "Chinese Flu", no, Trump got elected seeing China as a threat and, surprise, he still sees China as a threat. Regardless someone has pushed Trump to change to using "invisible enemy", /rolls eyes, so now the entire point is moot. If he caved on the term everyone following him will too. So the politically correct win, suppressing hate inciting speech by creating more hate.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

I went back to the AAPC statement and did not find any statement suggesting that all cultures are created equal, but perhaps I overlooked such a statement.

The previous quote suggested it...

Harmful tropes of “yellow peril” continue to be perpetuated by the news, within institutional and popular portrayals of our people, our food, and our customs as unsafe and unwelcome. Consider, for example, images of Asian peoples in masks while reporting on COVID-19.

...inferring anything you say against Asian culture is wrong. You are correct though "equal" wasn't an accurate term so I'll be more precise. Having gone through ALL of AACC's blog posts and web site there is a leftist bias and refusal to lay any blame on certain cultures. Some are encouraging Christian posts, others link various sites, and one to leftist NPR (before I ever listened to anything conservative NPR was the station where you would always hear pretentious loons regardless of politics). Their book list seems leftist too with the top one being "White Out: Understanding White Privilege and Dominance in the Modern Age". If they are concerned with "Chinese flu" inciting hate maybe they should be concerned about that book. Bias detected. As a bit aside if they are concerned about people being misleading they need to change their name because "Asian American Christian Collaborative" is misleading when they basically only address racism. I thought Asian Americans had other problems than just racism. It's like the "Human Rights Campaign" without knowing can you guess the only right they are interested in? Though I'm not the one complaining about being misleading, they are, name yourself whatever you want.

According to one AACC article if you are against immigration you are basically racist (they say "Nativist" but the distinction is insignificant in some of their uses). Thanks for using "undocumented" immigrant too that totally doesn't show bias. As far debating the costs of unfettered immigration it would take to long to go into just google XD. I will however state my basic logic on immigration in the spoiler...

Spoiler: Thoughts on immigration

1. The left argument is immigrants are people are poor and destitute and it would be cruel not to help these people.
2. You cannot bring money in and be poor. They must be poor otherwise there would be no reason we must let them in.
3. So immigrants leave other nations to come here for a better life.
4. This means those nations are worse off.
5. Why are those nations worse off?
6. Either outside forces or internal forces.
7. Considering a century of immigration from certain countries I would cite internal forces at least being a significant factor.
8. Internal forces means it's people not being personally responsible.
9. Some cross a border to flee the ideas that made their country bad but other ones bring those bad ideas with them.
10. The good immigrants by abandoning their country make it worse off. Thus nothing changes and the stream perpetuates.
11. The bad immigrants repeat the same mistakes that made their country bad here.
12. Thus the logic is there should be a limit on immigration so they remain a minority, regardless of race, and adapt to our ideas as opposed to them becoming a majority and recreating their country and it's problems here.

To believe there are no bad immigrants would mean you think all foreign cultures are equal to us which was why I said equal up top. People are equal in sin not ideas. Compare if no man goes to the Father but by Christ all other ways are bad. I believe in a moral absolute not moral relativism.

"Oh but immigrants won't take over".

They already did that is how America got Texas to begin with. Though we were the ones breaking from a problem country, Mexico.

1. Mexico declares it's independence from Spain.
2. Santa Anna rebels being elected President over Mexico and Texas.
3. Mexico invites immigrants to tame the inhospitable northern Texas area.
4. The immigrants and Santa Anna go to war.
5. Santa Anna loses Texas to the immigrants.

Now there won't be a war but Texas is threatened with turning blue and some immigrants recreate the same problems of Mexico. While there is a respectable percent of Latinos who vote conservative the majority do not. I'm not ok with making my vote meaningless by letting anyone and everyone in. Those conservative Latinos who worked hard and came over legally probably aren't either. It's not a new trick. Give people things to vote for you is skeezy politics 101 only it's legalize people to get votes.

If you actually want to help these people Mexico needs to change. Addressing a symptom and never the cause is putting money in a pocket with a hole in it. It means if you care you intervene in foreign countries but that is repeatedly condemned by the left as colonialism, warmongering, or other such terms because they will not lay any blame on other cultures. It's a mindset that is ok with illegal immigrants changing us but try to change another country and it's evil interventionism. The immigrants we get that are good are the very ones that would change their own country for the better. The Mexican president says "hugs not bullets" to cartels but the AACC says in their article I am selfish for wanting limits on immigration, right...

Nativism is entirely centripetal, center-seeking toward self. The gospel is entirely centrifugal, center-fleeing toward others. Therefore, a church cannot simply say it’s against nativism (and racism and xenophobia) while standing on the sidelines as nativism continues to operate in the world and the church.

It is frighteningly possible to be functional nativists while being Christians. The good work of discipleship, true pastoring, and gracious accountability ensures that we practice what we preach rather than pursuing nativist actions and inactions.

AACC if you lock your doors, if you don't allow strangers to sleep in your kid's rooms you are a hypocrite.

Government exists for it's people and takes money to serve them. It is not charity which is freely given. You cannot economically absorb an endless stream of people. If immigrants are destitute and in need of help they aren't bringing money, services yes, money no. It is simple supply and demand that when you have a labor shortage you can let more people in. When you do not have a labor shortage you don't. We used to have limits on immigration based on race, that was wrong, but we should have limits. There are limits on money, limits on pollution, why not this. If there is a time for everything under Heaven sin is in fact too much, too little, at the wrong place, wrong time, etc. . Why is it racist, xenophobic or nativist to say we need limits on immigration?

I watched this long ago. A bit over dramatic but effective.

In another AACC article blacks are harder hit by Covid because racism.

Spoiler: Thoughts on blacks being hit harder by Covid

I agree income contributes to living and health conditions, duh, but to use Covid to jump to the conclusion that racism is the primary cause of income inequality or that is the primary reason for black health problems is opportunistic at best. Shapiro covered this when the black surgeon general literally tried to address the black community about Covid in a recent conference... so he was accused of racism X.X because they can't turn the leftism off. It's like when some complain about the disproportional amount of blacks in prison, yell racism, and when you say blacks commit more crime, they yell racism again.

Asians do get the shaft with interracial violence but if AACC is going to talk blacks maybe they should mention...

out of the 593,598 interracial violent victimization crimes between blacks and whites reported in 2018, 90 percent were black against white, and 9.5 percent were white against black. That is simply astounding given that black people compose just 12 percent of the general population and white people comprise 62 percent.

How can incarceration rates be racist if they reflect the ACTUAL crime rates? | Blaze Media

Under a true system of justice, if you do the crime, you do the time. Law and order deter bad guys. Period. However, once we start social engineering and going soft on crime in order to avoid rightfully incarcerating individuals of particular races, everyone is harmed, including those the...

www.conservativereview.com

That loon with Febreze, black, that nut who stabbed the Chinese family, Hispanic. Again there are certainly racist whites but it's almost if AACC is only concerned with promoting a leftist perspective.

One reason postulated about why Italy was effected more was because their culture promotes less personal space. Is that racist to consider?

There are elements in black culture that celebrate shooting pigs and riding dirty. That tell them from birth they are owed. That have Fathers abandoning their children. I find it plausible that these might be significant factors contributing to a lack of personal responsibility in both income inequality and listening to authority to take health precautions seriously. We can talk about racism but if that's all you can talk about it creates a distorted image of the way things are.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

Race is a sensitive subject, but that's all the more reason it should be discussed calmly and rationally, which is very difficult to do when online communication strips non-verbal cues such as tone of voice from the conversation. I agree that people who are quick to call others racist with little evidence to support their claim, whether they be individuals discussing these topics online or officials representing their respective governments, do a great disservice to each other and to themselves by denying others channels for civil discourse.

Nods. For outsiders Tek and me are not mad at each other we speak outside this thread. Though I am probably exhausting the poor thing I assure you it's far worse on my end. I believe his motivation for posting the statement was honorable, good, and true.

We once had a beautiful bromance slugging each other in the arm but then Puzzles and Dragons came out and it was over.

Are public forums the place to discuss controversial topics? After over 20 years leading online communities, I'm not convinced. People typically will share their own views, but I've seen very little interest in reexamining beliefs in the last 2 decades. That's not to say it doesn't or can't happen. It's just been my experience that people usually have their mind made up when they join the conversation and post primarily to prove themselves right or make their own viewpoint and reasoning known. I just spent 30 minutes typing out a post to make my viewpoint known, so I'm not suggesting that I'm an exception to what experience has taught me.

When all said and done, we can agree that (1) man is inherently selfish and sinful, (2) discrimination based on race is bad, and (3) only Christ can us from our sin and restore us to right standing with God.

And while we should be students of history and seek to engage in conversations on controversial topics after reading reliable information, I'mreminded of Ecclesiastes in moments like these:

Ecclesiastes 12:12, ESV

I have no doubt we could spend months discussing these topics, but for today and for now, I conclude my post.

That I can agree with