Does "Destination" matter?

C

ChristGuard

New Member
Hey guys! Here is a hot topic question for you:

Does a Christian's stance on "Pre-Destination" matter? If so, how so? Can someone disagree with your stance on pre-destination and still go to heaven, serve Christ, or simply just grow in Him? Or is it a fundamental? Why?

:eek:
 
ChristGuard said:
Hey guys! Here is a hot topic question for you:

Does a Christian's stance on "Pre-Destination" matter? If so, how so?
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No, it "doesn't matter" in that it's a non-essential theology that isn't a requirement for salvation. One must call upon the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. The particulars of how this happens are often hotly debated, but the fact that it happens is all that truly matters (imho).

ChristGuard said:
Can someone disagree with your stance on pre-destination and still go to heaven, serve Christ, or simply just grow in Him? Or is it a fundamental? Why?
:eek:
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Yes, we can disagree on many things and still go to heaven. There are core fundamental things we can't really disagree about.
 
I pretty sure the Bible doesn't say believe in Christ AND predestination (or free-will) and you will be saved.

As far as where I stand, it's somewhere in the middle (I expect to be spewed anytime soon) as I see verses that with a simple reading can be used to support either. God chose me, I don't know on what basis (my decisions or His Divine Will or...) and the Bible doesn't make it explicitly clear.
 
I agree with both Lloren and Patriot, that this is not a salvation issue. As to what I believe, I see evidence that both are true in the Bible, so I think both are true. To explain my beliefs in this I would have to go into the explanation of spacetime, and that God lives outside of it.

The easiest way for me to explain is this question: Does someone knowing the choice you will make change your ability to make that choice?
 
While I think it is an important topic, I cannot think of any reasons why an understanding or lack of understanding of Predestination would affect eternal destination, service, or growth.
 
Wow, I did not expect so much civility and understanding! Bravo peeps of CGA!

Let me push further!

Those of you who believe Pre-Destination: Why do we need to try to live a Holy life, evangelize, or repent?

Those who believe in Free-Will: Do you believe God is Omniscient and Omnipotent (All knowing and All powerful)?

Those who believe both, how do you explain the seemingly obvious contradiction. (I believe both and have an answer for this, but for the sake of conversation while I am sitting here at work being bored, I thought I would ask).
 
Personally, I'm Calvminian. If you get down to the details most believers hold to a mixture of the two positions. God's ways and thoughts are far above our own and at times it makes it hard for us to understand things which He can see so clearly.
 
ChristGuard said:
Wow, I did not expect so much civility and understanding! Bravo peeps of CGA!

Let me push further!

Those of you who believe Pre-Destination: Why do we need to try to live a Holy life, evangelize, or repent?

Those who believe in Free-Will: Do you believe God is Omniscient and Omnipotent (All knowing and All powerful)?

Those who believe both, how do you explain the seemingly obvious contradiction. (I believe both and have an answer for this, but for the sake of conversation while I am sitting here at work being bored, I thought I would ask).
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It shouldn't be surprising this topic has been discussed frequently. Check out this thread if you would like to start a new topic: http://cgalliance.org/forums/showthread.php?t=35228
 
ChristGuard said:
Those who believe both, how do you explain the seemingly obvious contradiction.
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I can't remember what Bible teacher said it, but it went something like this. Salvation is sort of like a doorway which has a sign posted on it that says "Come whosoever may". However, when we pass through we see on the other side another sign "I chose you before the foundation of the world".

Essentially saying that we have a choice to make, that must be made. Yet even with that choice God retains His Sovereignty. The Bible says that God chooses based upon His foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:2), it does not specify what criteria contained in that foreknowledge God bases His decision upon. The free-will advocate would claim it is based upon our decision to choose Him, the Calvinist would claim it is based upon His divine prerogative. I say it isn't specified, so why do we try to squeeze more from the text than is there?
 
You show me the words "free will" in the Bible and I'll agree with you. :)


Don't want you to think Predestination isn't in the Bible.

Proginosko (prog-in-oce'-ko)
Verb

Definition
to have knowledge before hand
to foreknow of those whom God elected to salvation
to predestinate

Word Usage - Total: 5 (Note there are other variations that are also used that can add to this count... in fact there are over 50 verses that have variations)


foreknew 2, foreknown 1, knowing...beforehand 1, known 1


Acts - 1
Romans - 2
1 Peter - 1
2 Peter - 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total - 5
 
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ChristGuard said:
Wow, I did not expect so much civility and understanding! Bravo peeps of CGA!

Let me push further!

Those of you who believe Pre-Destination: Why do we need to try to live a Holy life, evangelize, or repent?

Those who believe in Free-Will: Do you believe God is Omniscient and Omnipotent (All knowing and All powerful)?

Those who believe both, how do you explain the seemingly obvious contradiction. (I believe both and have an answer for this, but for the sake of conversation while I am sitting here at work being bored, I thought I would ask).
Click to expand...

(Pulled this from one of my college papers)

When one correctly understands that God has not only elected certain individuals to salvation but also has ordained the means of salvation—the preaching of the Gospel it empowers the spreading of the Gospel message and the call to evangelism. We see this very thing in Paul’s writing to Timothy in the midst of deep persecution. “I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ…”
2 Timothy 2:10 'For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.'
Romans 1:16 'For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.',
Romans 10:14-17 '14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.'
John 10:16 'I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.'

Unconditional election also does not mean that there will be people in heaven who do not want to be there, nor will there be people in hell who wanted to be saved but could not be because they were not elect.
Romans 1:18-20 'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.'
Ephesians 1:5 'He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will'

...

I have more if you want...
 
Please don't use strawman arguements, it sounds like you are belittling me... I simply responded, no need to attack me.

For the record I do not believe in the rapture, like you most likly do, but that is for another topic.
 
Wolfeman said:
So are you saying you don't believe in the Trinity or the Rapture? Do you use the Bible since it's not a word you find in the Scriptures anywhere either?
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Actually the word rapture, meaning to be caught up or carried away, is in the bible. Rapture is more of an old English word that comes from the Greek harpazo. I do agree with what I believe you are trying to say, to make a judgement because a word is or is not in the Bible is not a sound argument.
 
Mordos said:
You show me the words "free will" in the Bible and I'll agree with you. :)
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Exodus 35:29 NKJV
The children of Israel brought a freewill offering to the LORD, all the men and women whose hearts were willing to bring material for all kinds of work which the LORD, by the hand of Moses, had commanded to be done.

Leviticus 1:3 NKJV
‘If his offering is a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish; he shall offer it of his own free will at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD.

Leviticus 19:5 NKJV
‘And if you offer a sacrifice of a peace offering to the LORD, you shall offer it of your own free will.

Leviticus 22:19 NKJV
you shall offer of your own free will a male without blemish from the cattle, from the sheep, or from the goats.

Leviticus 22:29 NKJV
And when you offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving to the LORD, offer it of your own free will.

Ezra 3:5 NKJV
Afterwards they offered the regular burnt offering, and those for New Moons and for all the appointed feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and those of everyone who willingly offered a freewill offering to the LORD.
 
Mordos said:
Please don't use strawman arguements, it sounds like you are belittling me... I simply responded, no need to attack me.

For the record I do not believe in the rapture, like you most likly do, but that is for another topic.
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I'm truly sorry you felt like I was belittling you. That was not the point of my statement. However, I understand how tone can be inferred in an innocent post (your original post sounds very arrogant while I'm sure you don't mean it to be) so please accept my apology.

My point was merely that concepts are clearly taught in the Bible but not often clearly named. We have named them to make it easier to explain and talk about. Groups like JW's and Mormons don't believe in the Trinity partly because it is not named as such in the Bible and their error is quite obvious when we study scripture.

Predestination is named in the Bible and there are some Bible passages that make it very difficult to fit in with Free-will when we view God from our viewpoint. However, verses like Romans 10:13 (to me) clearly show Free-will and must be explained together with Predestination.

We were given a choice in the Garden to accept or reject God's Law. If there was no choice then there was no sin. We had to make that choice for it to be disobedience. We are given a choice to accept or reject the free gift of salvation. Again, if there is no choice, there is no damnation. Before sin was, we chose to sin. Before salvation is, we can choose to accept it.

I tend to stay out of a lot of conversations because negative tone is often inferred to a lot of my posts. I'm not sure what about my words causes this and I've tried to be very careful about what I write and reread it several times. However, my posts seem to often cause contention and anger. If you or anyone else feels I'm talking down to you, belittling you or anything other than lovingly disagreeing with you, PLEASE understand that is not my goal nor my attempt. And please let me know so I can apologize.
 
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