Does "Destination" matter?

[Icthus]

Free will is all over scripture. You most likely choose to see it through a predestined lens.

Moses changed God's heart. Abraham changed God's mind. But, most predetermined existence people say, "God planned that so it was pre determined".

You also have the quandary of Saul. The spirit of God left him....

Clearly the Hebrew people are God's chosen in the older covenant. Just as clearly, not all of them will make it to Abraham's bosom.

New Testament- John 3:16 clearly says whoever, not only those God preordained. Romans impresses on us in chapter 10, that for anyone (again not the sealed only) who calls on Jesus shall be saved.

I prefer to rely on the entirety of God's word to make my decisions. On this one, I am clearly in both camps. There is little doubt in my mind Paul had no choice in his salvation. The same is true for many people that God set aside. But, it is also clear the choice to follow Jesus is for anyone. (I have more too Mordos )

For me the word predetermined is not predestined. I believe the Greek word is better described differently. There is no real direct English translation, like many Greek words and idioms. I suppose a good word picture would be God set up the rules for what a "football field" is- 100 yards long and 50 yards wide. So, that is in a sense predetermining a football field. Not all fields by those measurements are fields, but some are if they are designed correctly.

I truly believe this is an issue that should NEVER break fellowship. It should never cause division. It is a topic for us to talk about, talk around and see how huge God is and how incapable we are of completely grasping is awesomeness.

But, that is just me.

And clearly, the "rapture" as taught by some modern day peeps is not in Scripture. The word for sure is not in the text. It is only a small reference that many people take and make major theology out of it. IF this offends you I am sorry. Please read The Revelation of Jesus Christ and let me know where you see the rapture .

 

[Patriot]

And clearly, the "rapture" as taught by some modern day peeps is not in Scripture. The word for sure is not in the text.

The word means "being caught up" which is derived from 1 Thessalonians 4:17 so in essence it is in the text. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

It is only a small reference that many people take and make major theology out of it. IF this offends you I am sorry. Please read The Revelation of Jesus Christ and let me know where you see the rapture .

Revelation is not the only place where the end times are discussed. As you state before, we need to rely on the entirety of God's Word not just a small section.

I personally believe in the rapture, but I don't think it is a huge deal if you don't. As you said regarding predestination, this too is an issue that should not break fellowship or cause division.

 

[Icthus]

The word means "being caught up" which is derived from 1 Thessalonians 4:17 so in essence it is in the text. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture


Revelation is not the only place where the end times are discussed. As you state before, we need to rely on the entirety of God's Word not just a small section.

I personally believe in the rapture, but I don't think it is a huge deal if you don't. As you said regarding predestination, this too is an issue that should not break fellowship or cause division.

The difficulty with this is 1 Thess. is not a prophecy book. While I agree with meeting Jesus in the sky and that, I am not sure it will be all of us leaving our bodies at one time and the world wondering where we went.

And I agree this is not a fellowship breaking issue.

 

[ChristGuard]

Matthew 24:36-44 (Emphasis Added)
36“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,f but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.[/B]

42“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.


Just sayin'...

 

[Patriot]

Matthew 24:36-44 (Emphasis Added)
36“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,f but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.[/B]

42“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.


Just sayin'...

Read who is "taken" in the example he gives of Noah. I would hesitate to say this is a reference to the rapture.

 

[Kunkali]

A book doesn't have to be a prophetic book in order to contain prophecies. Two examples are Psalms and the Gospels, neither of them are officially labeled prophetic yet they contain tons of prophecies nevertheless.
Let's be cautious not to write things off in Scripture just because they don't coincide with what we personally believe or because it's in a book that's not "labeled" as such. We need to conform our views to what Scriptures actually say as opposed to conforming Scripture to our views/opinions.

 

[ChristGuard]

Read who is "taken" in the example he gives of Noah. I would hesitate to say this is a reference to the rapture.

Wow, at first I thought your argument here was steller, and it made me hesitate in my thinking. But I went to double check with Strong's lexicon and what I found supports my stance that this is indeed about the rapture.

The word "took" in Matt 24:39 is translated from the Greek word αἴρω (airō) which, acording to strongs can mean (among other things) "to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence" (See here) while the word used about the men in the field and the women at the mill is a completly different greek word, the word that "taken" was transleted from is παραλαμβάνω (paralambanō) which can mean, acording to Strongs:
1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self an associate, a companion
2) to receive something transmitted
(See here) Notice that dying and death are not found anywhere in this word's definition.

Learning this my belief in the rapture is now only stronger, and I would say this is a staple passage for the rapture.

 

[Patriot]

Wow, at first I thought your argument here was steller, and it made me hesitate in my thinking. But I went to double check with Strong's lexicon and what I found supports my stance that this is indeed about the rapture.

The word "took" in Matt 24:39 is translated from the Greek word αἴρω (airō) which, acording to strongs can mean (among other things) "to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence" (See here) while the word used about the men in the field and the women at the mill is a completly different greek word, the word that "taken" was transleted from is παραλαμβάνω (paralambanō) which can mean, acording to Strongs:
1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self an associate, a companion
2) to receive something transmitted
(See here) Notice that dying and death are not found anywhere in this word's definition.

Learning this my belief in the rapture is now only stronger, and I would say this is a staple passage for the rapture.

Hmmm, thanks for that. I still have much to learn.

 

[Mordos]

Free will is all over scripture. You most likely choose to see it through a predestined lens.

Moses changed God's heart. Abraham changed God's mind. But, most predetermined existence people say, "God planned that so it was pre determined".

You also have the quandary of Saul. The spirit of God left him....

Clearly the Hebrew people are God's chosen in the older covenant. Just as clearly, not all of them will make it to Abraham's bosom.

New Testament- John 3:16 clearly says whoever, not only those God preordained. Romans impresses on us in chapter 10, that for anyone (again not the sealed only) who calls on Jesus shall be saved.

I prefer to rely on the entirety of God's word to make my decisions. On this one, I am clearly in both camps. There is little doubt in my mind Paul had no choice in his salvation. The same is true for many people that God set aside. But, it is also clear the choice to follow Jesus is for anyone. (I have more too Mordos )

For me the word predetermined is not predestined. I believe the Greek word is better described differently. There is no real direct English translation, like many Greek words and idioms. I suppose a good word picture would be God set up the rules for what a "football field" is- 100 yards long and 50 yards wide. So, that is in a sense predetermining a football field. Not all fields by those measurements are fields, but some are if they are designed correctly.

I truly believe this is an issue that should NEVER break fellowship. It should never cause division. It is a topic for us to talk about, talk around and see how huge God is and how incapable we are of completely grasping is awesomeness.

100% agree that it is not a dividing point...

For me... Not pushing my belief on anyone... If free will, as most explain it, was true then Christ did not die for anyone, but a chance for everyone... so on the cross nothing was completed just taking to a point and the rest is up to man. I can not agree with that and FOR ME would rather not worship that god as he left it up to a depraved race. Trust me I like the fact that I am not incontrol, it gives me peace and if left up to me, I'd be on the road to hell... Good thing it isn't.

One last thing John 3:16 should read "that all the believing ones" not whosoever... that word is an aweful translation that has stuck, for who know why.

 

[Patriot]

One last thing John 3:16 should read "that all the believing ones" not whosoever... that word is an aweful translation that has stuck, for who know why.

Sounds like the same thing to me:

"Whosoever believes"
"All the believing ones"

Could you tell me what you think 1 John 2:2 is saying?

 

[ewoksrule]

That is the hardest one at face value.
Here is what I agree with personally.
http://www.reformationtheology.com/2007/11/understanding_1_john_22.php

to sum up a long but great read.
"The whole world" means "people of all kinds, including Jews, Gentiles, Greeks, Romans, and whatnot" as opposed to "ours only" i.e., the Jewish nation. What the apostle John is saying in the John 11 passage is particularly significant: Christ died so that he might gather "the children of God" the elect, from the whole world."

 

[ChristGuard]

If I was in a room with 50 people and I asked tell the group "If you want 50 dollars, raise your hand and I will give it to you" and then 25 people raise their hand and I give each of those people 50 dollars, then who was in control of who got what money?

If you where one of the people who received the cash would you say "I chose to get 50 dollars today!" or would you say "Some guy gave me 50 dollars today!"?

If you were the person giving the cash away would your attitude be "25 people chose to take 50 dollars from me today" or would your attitude be "I chose to give a room full of people 50 dollars and 25 accepted my offer!"?

--------------

I see God as the man giving away the Cash, he chose to give it to everyone, but only some people accept the offer. He is ultimately in control of who get's the cash, and He decided in the first place to give it away (and HE is Omniscient so He already knows who will take it) but HE doesn't force anyone to take it, He gives them the option.

Finally I will say this to you DOS: I love you bro, but the language "I don't want to serve that God" is way to harsh, you just previously said it was not a dividing issue. I could just as easily say "I don't want to serve a God who forces people to serve Him and forces other people into hell". But instead lets just say, "I don't agree with your ideas about the God we serve, and most likely don't understand them fully. But I am glad we both serve Him with all our hearts". Sorry, that is a little Hippie-ish I know, and I know you did not mean offense by your post, nor was any taken, just a heads up! =D

 

[CowRocket]

If I was in a room with 50 people and I asked tell the group "If you want 50 dollars, raise your hand and I will give it to you" and then 25 people raise their hand and I give each of those people 50 dollars, then who was in control of who got what money?

That's the best example I've read. Mind if I use that if needed?

 

[Lloren]

I don't like the cash analogy. Heaven isn't a trip that you chose correctly. "Congratulations! You picked door #3! Heaven!" and the opposite is that you weren't so smart to chose the free gift offered. This would imply that people who aren't saved are not as intelligent as people who are saved. That's the subtle danger of asserting free will too heavily is that heaven becomes man's merit due to our own good judgement. It's no wonder the world views the church as pompous and arrogant. They are the ones that "are smarter than everyone else"

Total depravity means man is incapable of reaching out to God (There is none that seek after Him - Romans ) and therefore God must initiate the rescue. Like a sinking boat in which all men are doomed (For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God ) we are unable to save ourselves without God extending grace to us through His Son. We can't pull ourselves up and say "I chose $50" until He draws us (No man can come to me unless the Father draws him - John). Belief (Faith) is a requirement of salvation, but the receiving of faith is not conjured up by one's self (It is a gift of God lest any man should boast).

"No man ever did, or ever will feel himself
to be a lost, miserable and hateful sinner,
unless he be powerfully and supernaturally
convinced by the Spirit of God." - John Newton

 

[Wolfeman]

I agree with pretty much everything Loren said. Right up to the point where man has to decided to accept salvation or reject it. We are brought to the point of decision then, just like in the Garden, it's up to us to make that choice.

 

[Patriot]

Total depravity means man is incapable of reaching out to God (There is none that seek after Him - Romans ) and therefore God must initiate the rescue. Like a sinking boat in which all men are doomed (For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God ) we are unable to save ourselves without God extending grace to us through His Son. We can't pull ourselves up and say "I chose $50" until He draws us (No man can come to me unless the Father draws him - John). Belief (Faith) is a requirement of salvation, but the receiving of faith is not conjured up by one's self (It is a gift of God lest any man should boast).

I agree that we are incapable of reaching out to God without Him first drawing us. However, the question then becomes, "how many does he draw"? Could John 12:32 shed some light on that?

 

[ChristGuard]

That's the best example I've read. Mind if I use that if needed?

Sure, I came up with it a while ago, maybe one day I will use it in a book. =D

 

[ChristGuard]

I don't like the cash analogy. Heaven isn't a trip that you chose correctly. "Congratulations! You picked door #3! Heaven!" and the opposite is that you weren't so smart to chose the free gift offered. This would imply that people who aren't saved are not as intelligent as people who are saved. That's the subtle danger of asserting free will too heavily is that heaven becomes man's merit due to our own good judgement. It's no wonder the world views the church as pompous and arrogant. They are the ones that "are smarter than everyone else"

Total depravity means man is incapable of reaching out to God (There is none that seek after Him - Romans ) and therefore God must initiate the rescue. Like a sinking boat in which all men are doomed (For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God ) we are unable to save ourselves without God extending grace to us through His Son. We can't pull ourselves up and say "I chose $50" until He draws us (No man can come to me unless the Father draws him - John). Belief (Faith) is a requirement of salvation, but the receiving of faith is not conjured up by one's self (It is a gift of God lest any man should boast).

"No man ever did, or ever will feel himself
to be a lost, miserable and hateful sinner,
unless he be powerfully and supernaturally
convinced by the Spirit of God." - John Newton

I don't think you understood my "Cash Example". In it there is no gamble, there is not door number three, nor is there any choice that requires intelligence. What there was a need of was trust. Trust that the man was really willing to give you the cash, and then a call to action, simply raise your hand.

No gamble there, if you want the cash, raise your hand, if you don't, then don't raise your hand.

Just like with God, He offered salvation to all of us, if we want it all we have to do is be born again (what that requires is a whole different discussion). We can chose to be born again and accept Christs salvation, or we can chose to reject it and not be saved (and thus have to answer for our sins and their consequences). I don't believe God forces anyone to be Saved, if they want to live apart from Him then He let's them, unfortunately for them that means an eternity away from Him in hell.

Then if you want to argue "Well what if someone want's to go to Heaven and live in sin? Well to bad for them, they were not smart enough to realize that their sin will send them to Hell". I would say "Certainly not". It's not an intelligence issue, it's a trust issue. They have been told what their sin will lead to, but will they trust God to believe Him? Many simply don't trust God and believe that they can live without salvation and still go to heaven. It's not a calculation they made poorly, its a choice they made to not listen. When I was a child I never stuck my finger in a electrical socket, not because I was smart enough to understand electrical current and the effect it has on living tissue, but because I trusted my parents when they told me it could kill me.

 

[ewoksrule]

I agree that we are incapable of reaching out to God without Him first drawing us. However, the question then becomes, "how many does he draw"? Could John 12:32 shed some light on that?

Once again we have another verse where the word "all" simply cannot mean "all men , everywhere" unless we want to spout the heresy of Universalism.

 

[ChristGuard]

Once again we have another verse where the word "all" simply cannot mean "all men , everywhere" unless we want to spout the heresy of Universalism.

Why can it no be that: Christ died so that all men everywhere could have salvation. Christ did not die so that all men everywhere would have salvation.?