I am just saying that you can't call one religion false because you don't like it. Kidan, thanks for your response, I agree with the modification.
I think it is rather a cop-out to say that because we all die, its ok. After all, this would in turn justify murder.
A friend of mine wrote this on the Amelakites.
Reading through the page and then several chapters of the 'good book' to refresh myself, it seems the apologist took a particularly disjointed look at the whole thing.
The Amalekites are mentioned 33 times in the Bible, starting with them getting the sh*t kicked out of them by a coalition of tribes that included those of Sodom and Gomorrah.
The next mention is an encounter with Moses and the Israelites, who were wandering around through the territories of others, taking what they needed to survive along the way. There is nothing in the Bible that even suggests that the Amalekites traveled a great distance from their own territory just to go bust on some Israelites, and there's no reason for them to. More likely, Moses wandered his people right into the Amalekites' turf. After getting stomped by the Sodom and Gomorrah (and friends) coalition, the Amalekites weren't taking any chances being neighborly, so they struck first.
Now Yahweh decides to have a little fun with the whole thing. As long as Moses holds his staff up in the air, the Israelites are winning, but when it drops, they start losing. (cool trick, huh?) So, a couple of guys park Moses' ass on a rock and hold his arms up for him, since he was getting pretty tired. Eventually, the Israelites kicked the Amalekites asses and all was well again. Well, almost...
Kicking their asses wasn't good enough, so God promises to eventually blot the Amalekites out of existence entirely. Now, being God and all, you'd think that if that's what the ol' boy wanted, he'd just have taken care of it right then and there by himself, rather than have human being go out later and slice open pregnant women. I guess that would have been too easy for an all-powerful god though, and not nearly as much fun...
Moses and the Israelites wander around the area for awhile longer, taking all the food and water they can find to stay alive, and eventually God tells Moses that he's decided to give them the land of Canaan - and f*ck everyone who's already there. Moses thinks it's a great idea and, per God, sends out 12 guys as spies to find out everything they can about how strong these nations are, what kind of defenses they have, if the land's any good, are the people weak enough to beat down easy, oh... and bring back some fruit.
Off they go, and 40 days later they come back with some grapes from the 'land of milk and honey', and tales of fortified cities with strong armies, and they're not very hopeful. Not only were the Amalekites among those big, strong tribes, but the Nephilm Giants who were completely wiped out looooong ago in the Noah flood are somehow miraculously there as well.
The rumors spread among the Israelites that they're all about to be sent into a slaughterhouse, and this time they're the sheep, which gets them all in a panic. Pretty soon they're all bitching again and threatening to stone ol' Moses, cursing the day he led them out of Egypt.
Well, that pissed off god again, which was actually pretty common for them to do by then, which sort of makes ya wonder why, of all the people on the planet, they were 'the chosen people'. In fact, god's so mad this time that he declares that he punishes people's children and grandchildren for what their parents and grandparents do. And all the Israelites that have been wandering around in a desert, tired, starving and thirsty most of the time, and getting into bloodbaths whenever they find food and water because it belongs to someone else, get a special favor from god.
God tells Moses that they bitched themselves right into dieing right there in the desert. Not one of them alive will get to the Promised Land. Be good and your kids might... or maybe your grandkids... Well, there's something to look forward to, eh? You're going to die in the desert - Praise the Lord! And he started with the guys that went out as spies and came back, since they told everyone the truth about what they'd seen and got the people all in a panic. God gave them the plague and they croaked right then and there in the desert. Well, all but Joshua and Caleb, who were headstrong and dumb enough to not give a sh*t about how big the forces were against them, and believed wholeheartedly that they should run, not walk, to the nearest bloodbath in Canaan. God likes that kind of sh*t, so they got to live.
Well, when the people of Israel saw that, they got religion again and decided that they better get that fighting spirit God was so fond of. So, off they went to face the tribes in Canaan, including the Amalekites. Moses tried to stop them, telling them that God had pulled his protective shield away, and it only made sense, since God had now told them that none of them would live to see the Promised Land. Well, if they defeated the Amalekites, they could have waltzed right in, and that would have gone against God's plan, so guess what happened? Yep, the Amalekites and Canaanites kicked the sh*t out of them all the way back to Hormah.
So, now the Israelites have a lot of time on their hands, as they sit around out in the desert waiting to die so that their kids and grandkids can finally go kick the sh*t out of several hundred thousand or more people, take over their land and goods, and finally have a place to call 'home'. God takes the time to give them about 600 laws that include not eating lobster (one of my personal favorites), and cutting off the hand of any woman that tries to keep her husband from being killed by grabbing his opponent's balls - and show her no pity (that's way up there too on my hit parade). Anyway, during this, almost as an afterthought, God reminds Moses that when the time comes, they're going to completely blot out the memory of the Amalekites from under Heaven (so why do we know about them still?) for what they did - How DARE they defend their territory!
Eventually, enough of the old generation had died, and Joshua took the Israelites into Canaan, started a war, slaughtered a bunch of people, took all their sh*t, kicked ass, and the survivors hung up 'home sweet home' signs. Pretty soon, the Israelites are living with the Canaanites and several of the other nations in the areas in relative peace, since they'd now proved that they could kick ass when they wanted to.
The next time we hear about the Amalekites, the Israelites are intermarrying and carrying on like human beings with the people of the nations around them, which of course displeases God immensely. So, God removed his shield again about the time the Amalekites and a few other nations who were still pretty pissed about Israel marching in and killing, pillaging and looting and taking over, formed a coalition to kick the Israelite's asses - but good, and took back Jericho from them in the process.
Well, the Israelites didn't like that one bit, so they sent an assassin over to the king that led the coalition. The assassin had a sword a foot and a half long strapped to his thigh and, when he got the king alone, plunged it into the fat king's gut past the handle and it stuck out through fat boy's back. He escaped back to Israel, who then launched an attack on Moab, killing 10,000 and sparing not a one. Things got peaceful again for 80 years.
Now, over the many, many years that all this is going on since leaving Egypt, God and the Israelites have this really heavy, Lifetime Channel love/hate relationship. One minute God's on their side and they're undefeated, the next he's turned his back cause they dissed him and they're getting the sh*t kicked out of them again. So we already see a pattern developing that should be all to familiar to us by now... When they're winning, God's on their side - Praise the Lord! When they're losing, they must have done something to piss God off, and it's time to offer up some sacrifices or something. Get it? It's like having lucky underwear.
Anyway, back to the story...
God's pissed, the Israelites are wimps again, and the Amalekites and some of the other nations around there are taking what they want when they want it, acting like they're Israelites or something. Sheesh - the nerve! The Israelites are living in caves and up on cliffs to keep from getting their asses kicked, while the Amalekites, Midianites and 'other Eastern people' are gathered in the area, too many to be numbered, and they're ravaging the land the Israelites have been calling 'home sweet home' since they stole it in the first place.
Too wimpy to deal with the situation themselves, they return to calling out to God, who answers by sending an angel to Gideon to deliver a message that God will kick ass if they tear down an alter to some other God they happen to have (that's one of the things that pissed God off). So Gideon tears down the alter to Baal. Gideon's still not sure about all this, so he tests god a few times to be sure he's not just hearing things, and each time god passes the test.
So, they gather up 32,000 men to go kick some Amalekites asses. But God's like, "waitaminute... that's too many. I want everyone to know that you couldn't do it alone. Get rid of some." So, 22,000 men go home, leaving just a thousand guys standing there against an army too big to number. "Still too many" says God. "Tell them to go get a drink. The ones that drink like a dog by lapping it up are my kinda guys - they can stay. Everybody else is outta the parade." Well, that brought the number down to 300 men against an army too huge to number.
Gideon and the 300 idiot warriors snuck up on their enemy in the dead of night and on the count of three started blowing the hell out of their trumpets, which scared the sh*t out of the huge army, and they all ran away. (you're still buying all this, right?)
Gideon sent word out for everyone to join in and take all the land along the Jordan from there to Beth Barah and back again, which they did, killing anyone that got in their way, since God was there to help. And they killed the Midianite leaders by cutting off their heads, and brought the heads back to Gideon, who presumably spent hours using them as soccer balls and laughing with glee. God and the Israelites were in another one of their 'love' cycles.
The next time we hear about the Amalekites (other than a mention of their land, where the Israelites buried someone), Saul is King and he's on the warpath. Moab, the Ammonites, Edom, the kings of Zobah, the Philistines and, of course, the Amalekites, all get their asses kicked soundly by the Israelites under King Saul.
Now here comes the juicy part... Some 400 years AFTER that first little scuffle with Israel, and despite the sh*t Israel has dished out to the Amalekites and everyone else in the region over all those years, God decides it's finally time to fulfill his promise to REALLY kick the everlasting sh*t out of the Amalekites.
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">1 Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD.
2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.
3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "
4 So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim-two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand men from Judah.
5 Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine.
6 Then he said to the Kenites, "Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt." So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.
7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, to the east of Egypt.
8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword.
9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs-everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.[/QUOTE]
The king of the Amalekites was brought to Samuel, who personally killed him.
Now you'd think, given the circumstances, that that would be about enough ultra-violence, mayhem and vengeance for anyone to pay on the Amalekites. But no. The next time they're mentioned, David is kicking their asses. Well, god just loved David, as he loves all extremists it seems, and the next thing ya know, Saul is out and David is in as king. Saul goes to a witch to bring up the apparition of the now dead Samuel for some advice, and Sam tells Saul that because he didn't inflict enough hurt on the Amalekites, that the next day, Saul and his boys are going to be killed by the Philistines.
Well, at that time, David had been hanging with the Philistines and having quite a lot of fun killing everything in sight with them. But the Philistines decided that if David was around when they went to take out Saul, David might just turn on them, so they sent David and his army that had killed 'tens of thousands' home.
When David got home, he found that the Amalekites, still pissed at the sh*t David had laid on them earlier, had gone on a looting spree themselves - in David's home town. AND - they had taken the women - INCLUDING BOTH of David's wives! They didn't kill any; just took 'em. Well, David had a fit and he set off with a few hundred men after them.
Along the way, they came across an Egyptian slave of the Amalekites who had been left behind when he fell ill. He knew everything. He'd been with them and knew where they were headed. He said he'd take David to them if David promised not to kill him or turn him over to his old master. David agreed.
Off they went and when they found the Amalekites there was a full party in swing. David killed all but 400, who escaped on camel during the melee. David and his boys got everything and everyone back unharmed, including both his wives, and they plundered all the stuff of the Amalekites since they were already there anyway.
Some distant cousins of David, the Simeonites tribe, killed off a bunch of Hamites and Meunites in their homes and took all the stuff, including the land over as their own, then 500 of them went on up to Seir and killed off the remaining Amalekites who'd escaped earlier and took that over too.
And that's the last mention of the Amalekites.
Somehow, I'm having a little trouble seeing the Amalekites as the 'bad guys', and it seems to me that the Israelites campaigned for several hundred years against the Amalekites until they had completely wiped them out - every last man, woman, child and infant. In my book, that's genocide.
Oh, and just for giggles, here's the dictionary on 'genocide':
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.[/QUOTE]
I think that fits.
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Ok, it is me again.
Kidan, you said that those who join do believe... I would disagree. If some crazy man came up to me holding a knife to my throat I would say I believed in the
Mystic Llama if asked.
Additionally, is it fair to #### someone for being unable to believe? Belief is a subconcious process to which is influenced by outside factors. As such, one can not go from being an Atheist, to a Christian, to an Atheistm, and to a Christian again just for the fun of it.
If you disagree, honestly tell me if you could simply stop believing this very instant, if you say you could, I would call you a liar unless your faith was already faltering.
I hope you understand my meaning.
it's also better for the gene pool to save the females. 
