why is magic bad?

No, I loved duke Nukem, it had settings if u didn't want to see all that other stuff. I never really used those settings, but I loved the game. Never really got very far in the game though.
 
There's more magic in the Bible than there is in Harry Potter and Morrowind combined.

Merriam Webster defines magic as "an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source".

Blood into wine, walking on water, various plagues, surviving fiery furnaces, casting out demons, healing the sick, parting of water, et al. can all be described as "magic" coming from a supernatural source, ie God.

I haven't read any of the Harry Potter books, but do they explain WHERE the magic comes from?  I know the origin of magic isn't explained in Morrowind.

Just something to keep in mind.

Here are some examples of magic in the Bible

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] In Genesis 44:5, Joseph's household manager refers to a silver drinking cup "...in which my lord drinketh and whereby indeed he devineth". Later, Joseph accuses his brothers of stealing the cup, saying "that such a man as I can certainly divine [the identity of the thieves]". These passages show that Joseph engaged in scrying. This is an ancient occultic method of divination in which a cup or other vessel is filled with water and gazed into. This technique of foretelling the future was used by Nostradamus and is still used today.
The Urim and Thummim were two objects mentioned in Numbers 27:21 and 1 Samuel 28:6 of the Hebrew Scriptures. They were apparently devices (perhaps in the form of flat stones) that the high priest consulted to determine the will of God. They might have worked something like a pair of dice.
Elisha was on his way to Bethel. Some small boys came out of the city and made fun of him because of his lack of hair; they called him "baldy". In a violent display of the power of black magic, Elisha cursed the children in the name of God. Two bears, apparently prompted by God, came out of the forest and tore 42 of the boys to shreds. The implication is that the children were all murdered. See 2 Kings 2:23-24.
Daniel, the prophet, was employed for many years in Babylon as the chief occultist to the king. He was supervisor "of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans and soothsayers". See Daniel 5:11.
St. Paul engaged in evil sorcery as described in Acts 13:6-12. (Sorcery is here used in the same way as Exodus 22:18: a person saying magical words or performing magical rituals in order to harm or kill another person). During his journey to Cyprus, St. Paul met Bar-Jesus, who was an attendant of the Roman proconsul Sergius Paulus. He had a conflict with cursed Bar-Jesus, saying:
"You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun. (NIV)

Bar-Jesus heard the curse and immediately was blinded.

St. Peter also engaged in evil sorcery, as described in Acts 5:9. After he determined that Sapphira had lied to him, he cursed her, saying
"How is it that ye have agreed together to try the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them that have buried thy husband are at the door, and they shall carry thee out. (ASV)

She collapsed and died immediately.
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I think some christians believe that only the magic in the bible is ok, all other magis is from the devil. Its a weak justification, but they probobly sleep better at night knowing this.
 
I don't believe in magic at all. The onnly "supernatural" powers in this world are either from the power of God, the Devil, attributed to luck, or part of nature. There is no such thing as magic incantations that will cause things to happen. If there is than you can file that under Devil.
 
None actually... what I meant by that way that people can guess at things and be right, but that does not mean they have the power of divination.
 
Exactly what proof do you have to attribute "supernatural" powers to God?

According to the Bible, there was powerful "magic" around that wasn't from God.  So powerful and real, that God warned not to be deceived by it.  Where did THAT magic come from?

Types of Magic mentioned in the Bible...

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]DIVINATION: The exact meaning of this practice is unknown. The word seems to convey the idea of obtaining an oracle (divine announcement) by means of drawing lots. Ezekiel 21:21-22 is a Biblical clue as to how divination may have been done.

OBSERVER OF TIMES: The meaning of this word is uncertain, as the list of words used in various translations indicates (practice soothsaying, practice spiritism, fortune-teller, enchanter, etc.). Because this word is closely related to the Hebrew word translated cloud, it may refer to the reading and interpretation of cloud patterns. Another thought is that this is an onomatopoetic word, a word that is derived from the sound of the individual performing the practice.

ENCHANTER: Because of the similarity of this Hebrew word to the word for snake, some scholars are of the opinion that there is a connection to snake charming. Others believe that since there is a similarity of hissing sounds between enchanters as they chant and snakes, this accounts for the similarity of the words.

WITCH: The RSV uses SORCERER. Exodus 7:11 tells us that Pharaoh had this group among his court advisors. Nebuchadnezzar also summoned his sorcerers to recount his dream as reported in Daniel 2. These men were using natural means to promote the belief that they truly had supernatural powers and to lead the people into a superstitious, pagan way of life which turned them away from the true and living God.

CHARMER: The Hebrew word reflects the sense of binding or casting a spell. The usual translation is enchantment which refers to the means that the charmer uses in attempting to influence people.

CONSULTER OF FAMILIAR SPIRITS: A variety of terms including medium, necromancer, ghost, and spirit of the dead, are used to describe this Hebrew term. I Samuel 28 describes a medium; a person who supposedly can make contact with the dead.

WIZARD: The root of this word comes from the Hebrew word to know, and implies knowledge available only to the specially initiated and not available to the ordinary person. The wizard was one who was thought to be acquainted with the secrets of the nonmaterial or unseen world.

NECROMANCER: This is a general term given for the practice of spiritualism. The Hebrew word means seeking unto the dead and is a comprehensive term which includes all forms of attempting to make contact with departed spirits.

MAGICIAN: Various forms of the Greek word magos are used to identify Simon, Elymas, and the Magi who came to visit Jesus after his birth. Although it is not easy to identify what the term magi precisely means, they "were clearly not crude practitioners of the occult arts" (see "Magic," The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, ed. Colin Brown, published by Zondervan).

SORCERER: As used in the book of Revelation, sorcerer is translated from the Greek word pharmakos, and carries with it the idea of medicine, magic potion, drugs, and poison. Sorcery (witchcraft in KJV) is one of the works of the flesh as listed in Galatians 5:20.

SEDUCERS: Some scholars feel that the seducers or impostors of II Timothy 3:13 may be translated sorcerer, wizard, or magician in light of the mention of Jannes and Jambres in vs. 8. Still, the context of the verse shows that this deceit will be in the area of doctrine and not in the area of legitimate entertainment.
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Aug. 25 2004,10:59)]I made a couple comments

Exactly what proof do you have to attribute "supernatural" powers to God?

I'm talking about Miracles.

According to the Bible, there was powerful "magic" around that wasn't from God.  So powerful and real, that God warned not to be deceived by it.  Where did THAT magic come from?

Types of Magic mentioned in the Bible...

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]DIVINATION: The exact meaning of this practice is unknown. The word seems to convey the idea of obtaining an oracle (divine announcement) by means of drawing lots. Ezekiel 21:21-22 is a Biblical clue as to how divination may have been done.

Just because it has been done does not mean it actually worked or is being helped by Satin.

OBSERVER OF TIMES: The meaning of this word is uncertain, as the list of words used in various translations indicates (practice soothsaying, practice spiritism, fortune-teller, enchanter, etc.). Because this word is closely related to the Hebrew word translated cloud, it may refer to the reading and interpretation of cloud patterns. Another thought is that this is an onomatopoetic word, a word that is derived from the sound of the individual performing the practice.

ENCHANTER: Because of the similarity of this Hebrew word to the word for snake, some scholars are of the opinion that there is a connection to snake charming. Others believe that since there is a similarity of hissing sounds between enchanters as they chant and snakes, this accounts for the similarity of the words.

WITCH: The RSV uses SORCERER. Exodus 7:11 tells us that Pharaoh had this group among his court advisors. Nebuchadnezzar also summoned his sorcerers to recount his dream as reported in Daniel 2.

These men were using natural means to promote the belief that they truly had supernatural powers and to lead the people into a superstitious, pagan way of life which turned them away from the true and living God.

My belief what most magic is

CHARMER: The Hebrew word reflects the sense of binding or casting a spell. The usual translation is enchantment which refers to the means that the charmer uses in attempting to influence people.

CONSULTER OF FAMILIAR SPIRITS: A variety of terms including medium, necromancer, ghost, and spirit of the dead, are used to describe this Hebrew term. I Samuel 28 describes a medium; a person who supposedly can make contact with the dead.

WIZARD: The root of this word comes from the Hebrew word to know, and implies knowledge available only to the specially initiated and not available to the ordinary person. The wizard was one who was thought to be acquainted with the secrets of the nonmaterial or unseen world.

NECROMANCER: This is a general term given for the practice of spiritualism. The Hebrew word means seeking unto the dead and is a comprehensive term which includes all forms of attempting to make contact with departed spirits.

MAGICIAN: Various forms of the Greek word magos are used to identify Simon, Elymas, and the Magi who came to visit Jesus after his birth. Although it is not easy to identify what the term magi precisely means, they "were clearly not crude practitioners of the occult arts" (see "Magic," The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, ed. Colin Brown, published by Zondervan).

SORCERER: As used in the book of Revelation, sorcerer is translated from the Greek word pharmakos, and carries with it the idea of medicine, magic potion, drugs, and poison. Sorcery (witchcraft in KJV) is one of the works of the flesh as listed in Galatians 5:20.

SEDUCERS: Some scholars feel that the seducers or impostors of II Timothy 3:13 may be translated sorcerer, wizard, or magician in light of the mention of Jannes and Jambres in vs. 8. Still, the context of the verse shows that this deceit will be in the area of doctrine and not in the area of legitimate entertainment.
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Magic might be mentioned in the bible, and warned aginst, but thats because
A. It comes from Satanic power
or
B. It is Fake trickery and doing such pratices would bring people away from God and into believeing in "other powers"

and don't believe in the "other power" that the "magic" might come from come such as spirts(yes I believe in souls)or powers from the earth.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Aug. 25 2004,11:56)]The truth is, the Bible never says that it comes from Satan.  Don't you think that's a pretty big assumption?
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Not really, the only other logical explanation is that God made a perment apple tree we humans cannot touch called magic.
 
Let me give an example for you, Virtue.

Witchcraft is considered bad because the very heart of the wican belief is to gain power through worship and summoning up of spirits, whether benign or volatile. The act of worshipping something else in the place of God is strictly forbidden in the Commandments, hence it is NOT OF GOD. Meaning it is of Satan.

Now, this being said, if I go summon up some spirit to give me power so I can levitate some random object, I am in the process of drawing the power from (a) satanic being(s), whether it be Lucifer himself or his angels. (This is stated off the common belief that there are no "ghosts" or human spirits just wandering about earth after death.)

God gave us common sense to draw conclusions like that, so no, it's not a big assumption, it's not an assumption at all, but a conclusion drawn from what we know of God's nature.
 
If God created all things, isn't everything OF GOD?

Good, evil, darkness, light, angels, demons.  They are all OF GOD, are they not?

If you would be so kind, please tell me where you got the notion that the very heart of the Wiccan belief is the gaining of power.  I wasn't familiar with that ideology, nor could I find reference to it at www.religioustolerance.org.  I don't think that Wicca is indicative of "witchcraft" in the slightest.  Wiccans do not worship any entity similar Satan or the Devil.

By the way, the notion that Lucifer and Satan are one and the same is an age old misconception that is refuted by modern day theists.  Try finding the name Lucifer in your Bible.  On the off chance that you do, I guarantee you that you will only find it once.  And if you read that chapter (Isaiah 14) IN CONTEXT, you will see it can not be historically or theologically attributed to Satan.

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to include a reference: http://www.cresourcei.org/lucifer.html
 
Since wicas arn't christian they don't even believe in a being called satan, lucifer, devil, etc.

Do u think when david blain levitates he's calling on satan to lift him up. Its mind over body.
And I've never heard of wicas trying to gain power.
 
david blain is probably just useing optical tricks. And just because one does not call on the powers of Satin does not mean they are useing them. Psychic powers are evil too.
 
silvia brown is cool.
No I thought of different ways david could of fooled the eye and I can't figure it out
 
You misread my post, either that, or it was just stated in a confusing way.

What I MEANT is that Wicans, when USING magic, the heart of USING that magic is in summoning up things from whence to draw it from.

And to correct you, I have several wican friends, and they quite often try to conjur up satan, calling him by the name of Lucifer, because even they, pagans, realize that Lucifer is a being of great power.

Might I point you this way, by the way...

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09410a.htm

In all my years, I've never ONCE heard an arguement that said Satan was not Lucifer, not from an atheist or a Christian. Much to the contrary, verses quite plainly give the name Satan to Lucifer as his personification of pure evil comes to bloom.


Footnote: On the other hand, I have heard arguements about Satan/Lucifer being fillers for any given demon, but that seems unlikely because other demons are called by name in the OT, as well as the new testament (Legion).
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (mechboy @ Aug. 25 2004,9:25)]silvia brown is cool.
No I thought of different ways david could of fooled the eye and I can't figure it out
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Sorry dude, David Blaine is an illusionist.

I've seen how the levitation gag works, it's all dependant on camera angle.  I'll see if I can dig up a website.

Here's a start...

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]David Blaine Levitation: How Does Blaine Levitate ?
Above anything else Blaine does, his levitation is the most sought after triumph of illusion. Ironically, Blaine used a combination of techniques to rivet and amaze onlookers in his street specials. One is a crude technique called the Balducci levitation. Just search the internet and you can find the simple secret on hundreds of two-bit exposure sites put up by 12 year old kids and the help of Geocities free web service. Even the Amazing Randi now provides a link to an exposure site, sadly buckling under the pressure from his readers to tell them how Blaine's levitation is performed.

But to learn the beautiful and crude Balducci, to really learn it... you must follow some competent instruction which will help turn the illusion from a bland secret into the flawless presentation of an extraordinary effect. The illusion is taught in the Street Magic Video named above.

The second levitation David Blaine performed on the Street Magic Special was one where he was seen to float two feet off the ground briefly. No one will be doing this unless they have a crane and several thousand dollars - forget it. The levitations that come closest to it are probably the "Elevator" and the "King Rising" Levitation. The Elevator is difficult to master and is about $100. King Rising Levitation takes practice but only runs about 20 bucks. An advantage of King Rising is that it involves no gimmicks or secret props... the levitation is entirely impromptu and can be done at a moment's notice. Grandmothers have been known to lose their dentures while watching this
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http://www.ellusionist.com/david-blaine.htm#DavidBlaineDVDandVideos

And from The Amazing Randi's web page:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I'll give you a few insights into Blaine's "levitation" demo. First, it's known in the magic trade as the "Balducci Move," or "Balducci Levitation." A well-known contributor to magical literature, Ed Balducci never claimed to have originated the trick, but he did popularize it. Second, in an actual street performance, only a few persons (or one camera!) correctly located, can enjoy the effect. Others who are not properly positioned, see clearly how it's accomplished. And, in a TV presentation of the item, there is often a good deal of "creative editing" used....

If you really want to know the whole story, you can perhaps over-inform yourself a bit at: http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Stage/7308/balducci.html but I trust that you will still continue to enjoy David Blaine's excellent work as a magician. His off-stage (off-street?) choices are of course another matter, and I leave him to those.
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http://www.randi.org/jr/041902.html
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]And to correct you, I have several wican friends, and they quite often try to conjur up satan, calling him by the name of Lucifer, because even they, pagans, realize that Lucifer is a being of great power.
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Not everyone who professes to be a Christian is a Christian are they?  Check this board, that is said time and time again.  Not everyone who claims to be Wiccan is Wiccan.  Exactly why would a Wiccan call on a being they don't believe in?  That makes no sense.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Might I point you this way, by the way...

www.newadvent.org/cathen/09410a.htm
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This website just proves my point.  "Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time."  This is the ONLY time the word Lucifer is translated as such in the Bible.  If you can find the NAME LUCIFER any other place, let me know. "In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed [note this says TRADITION because it can not be backed up by the Bible]; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4). "


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]In all my years, I've never ONCE heard an arguement that said Satan was not Lucifer, not from an atheist or a Christian.  Much to the contrary, verses quite plainly give the name Satan to Lucifer as his personification of pure evil comes to bloom.
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I would LOVE to see those verses that quite plainly give the name Satan to Lucifer and vice versa.  If you can do that, you are more learned than most modern day theists and scholars.
 
the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4). "

In other words, Satan WAS Lucifer, but fell from his glory and became Satan.

Think Power Rangers in reverse.


Satan is regularly pointed out as evil incarnate and is regularly pointed to as the angel who led rebellion in heaven. Check out Revelation.

I'm willing to learn anything if it's scriptural, but too much evidence points in the other direction for me.
 
I don't think you're understand what is being said.

Let's look at the quote, "In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4)."

In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed.  IN CHRISTIAN TRADITION means it is not in the Bible, it is simply a longstanding tradition or belief.  That doesn't make it true, that only makes it a popular belief.  THIS MEANING OF LUCIFER refers to the previous sentence, "...and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel...".  What this is saying is that it is TRADITION that Lucifer has been linked to Satan and is not backed up by Biblical principle.  

Now look at your last post, "the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen."  LUCIFER IS NOT THE PROPER NAME OF THE DEVIL, it is not the name of Satan.  LUCIFER was a term that described how he fell, "I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven (Lk 10:18).

I don't understand how you can keep rereading that and get that Lucifer and Satan were the same person, that is NOT what it says.

I will be more than happy to examine any verses you have to prove otherwise, but I honestly don't think they exist. There is simply no way to link Satan and Lucifer as the same being.
 
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