Wish me luck!

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Well thats a nice quote and all, but I have met many a cult member who has had a drastically changed life with more joy, peace, and good fruit then some Pastors I know. I am sorry but you don't have the gift of determining who is saved, because that is not a gift anyone has. You can be fooled just like anyone else can. There are people that are masters of deception and can fake a changed life easy. There is nothing so false and deceitful as the heart of man.

Now you are coming close to a "works salvation" in your definition. You are saying that change and a drastic impact is necessary to be saved are you not? (of course you are not, you are saying that the fruit will show what kind of tree it is, which I believe as well, but for the sake of this argument you can see how easily it becomes gray)

Another example of gray...head to any Calvinism vs Arminianism forums and you will find 2 drastically different camps both die-hard believing that they are right in their definition of salvation. But yet only one or none can be right. They can't both be.
 
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Xiontawa, I think its because Salvation is a very important factor in Christianity (and all the others for that matter). People aren't disowning you or libeling (murdered that word) you, it's a debate (kind of..)!

And for the black and white bit about salvation... Sure. It is black and white, but not if it is being looked at from one and only one denomination's aspect. Catholicism will have different activities you will need to fulfill in order to be saved. Baptists views are very different from that of the Catholic's view. When you compare the two of them, you must ask yourself: "Which of these is the correct way to salvation?" That is where it is black and white.

I believe that the Bible cannot fully answer these questions either, and I know I am treading on very thin ice here. But when the Bible was written, it was written with the people's aspects and ideals dealing with salvation.

I personally believe the answer is in your heart, and your actions should reflect your beliefs and what you think God looks upon as wholesome.

Thats a neat passage, I know that God wants us to be useful Christians. Hot or Cold ones serve a purpose for Him, but the lukewarm ones are useless.
Very nice way to sum that up. (Cold being bad and Hot being good.)

Cold Christians can be made an example of what not to do.
Hot Christians can be made into model Christians.
You cannot make a model of hypocrites.
 
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I believe all denominations to be wrong... I am non denominational...because putting your own views/ideas into what you believe isn't right IMO (Had a methodist church tell me that the holy spirit is only for a select few, THAT'S NOT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS, also had a baptist tell me healing is not for today, THAT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS!!!)...and that is what a denomination is... However, I DO NOT WANT TO DISCUSS THIS TOPIC, but I do believe that catholics and almost everyone in a denomination, if you believe in Jesus, will be saved...

(By the way, just so that everyone knows, I suck at debating, so don't just kick me in the face just because I cannot get my point across...)

And about the whole black and white thing, yes I was referring to Church in Laodicea...so, point made...
 
I think when it comes to salvation, only the Lord knows the status of someones eternal soul. I have known enough "bad" Christians and enough "good" non-believers to see that salvation is not able to be known by external evidence. Fruit can be seen, of course, but if someone is not bearing fruit for a time, how are we to know? We only see people for a short time, and even then we see the face they put on in public. Who they are in private and in their heart can be entirely different. The knowledge of the book of life is only for God.

As for denominations, I am also non-denominational. I believe that splitting the church is one of Satans greatest achievements. As long as we keep fighting amongst each other we will not be effective in outreach to the lost. Christian fighting Christian is not a good witness to others. We can all have our own opinions as the translation of Genesis, the identity of Melchizidec (sp), and the timing of the events of Revelation, but the thing that we should be united on is the salvation of Jesus Christ. Nowhere does it say that you have to be baptized to receive the Holy Spirit, that when married on earth you are married in heaven, that you can not worship with instruments, or any of the other things that split churches apart. Those are all opinions that have no bearing on the simple fact that Jesus saves. I know it sounds like a bumper sticker philosophy, but it is really that simple. When we try to decide who is saved and who isn't, by making our own rules that you must follow in order to be accepted by others as being saved, we push people away. It is not for us to judge, or set limits on who may be saved, or how they may be saved.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I have spent many hours on research and debate on this subject, and it is very important to me. I hope I stated my opinion clearly and without rancor.

God Bless all of us, as He has in past, may He so continue.
 
You don't have to continue the conversation if you don't want to, but I find it cool to see what other people believe.
 
As for denominations, I am also non-denominational. I believe that splitting the church is one of Satans greatest achievements. As long as we keep fighting amongst each other we will not be effective in outreach to the lost. Christian fighting Christian is not a good witness to others. We can all have our own opinions as the translation of Genesis, the identity of Melchizidec (sp), and the timing of the events of Revelation, but the thing that we should be united on is the salvation of Jesus Christ. Nowhere does it say that you have to be baptized to receive the Holy Spirit, that when married on earth you are married in heaven, that you can not worship with instruments, or any of the other things that split churches apart. Those are all opinions that have no bearing on the simple fact that Jesus saves. I know it sounds like a bumper sticker philosophy, but it is really that simple. When we try to decide who is saved and who isn't, by making our own rules that you must follow in order to be accepted by others as being saved, we push people away. It is not for us to judge, or set limits on who may be saved, or how they may be saved.

Perfect! Could not agree more... :)
 
Wow, can't believe I miss a conversation like this. Fun stuff (if approached in the right spirit).

Personally, I'm of the opinion that:

- Christianity usually gets in the way of Jesus
- Religion has never done anyone any good
- Movements accomplish a heck of a lot more than institutions
- People invented denominations, God didn't
- That fact doesn't change the fact that denominational churches can accomplish some very cool stuff
- Most 'church work' in the modern western world is aimed squarely at those that have already been reached, not those that need to be reached
- Most importantly of all, I'm way too messed up to believe that I've got it all figured out
 
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